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  1. In Sweden, approximately one in five adults suffers from dental anxiety or phobia. The number has decreased over time, but still, an important part of the population has major problems, according to a recent doctoral thesis from the University of Gothenburg. View the full article
  2. Phobiasupportforum

    Podcast: Depression Management Hints and Tips

    Can a never-depressed person truly understand what your depression is like? Or give you advice? Probably not. It’s like getting parenting advice from a non-parent. In today’s show, our two depressed co-hosts, Gabe and Lisa, understand the pain of depression and are here to share their experiences and offer some helpful tips. If you’re struggling with depression, tune in for a great discussion — from two people who have been there and understand what you’re going through. By the end, you’ll know you’re not alone. (Transcript Available Below) Please Subscribe to Our Show: And We Love Written Reviews! About The Not Crazy podcast Hosts Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com. Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back. Computer Generated Transcript for “Depression Tips” Episode Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you. Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a Psych Central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts. Gabe: Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am your host. But with me, as always, is the great Lisa Kiner. Lisa: Oh, thank you, Gabe. And today’s quote comes to us from Atticus, Depression is being colorblind and constantly told how colorful the world is. Gabe: This speaks to me in ways that I just cannot explain, Lisa: I know it’s awesome, right? Gabe: Right? Lisa: I like it a lot. Gabe: I think that people think that they understand depression in the same way that people think they understand colorblindness. Right? Depression is the absence of happiness. Colorblindness is the absence of color. But. Lisa: Colorblindness actually doesn’t work that way. Gabe: Well, but you see what I mean? Lisa: Right, right, right, the analogy is even better than we thought. Oh, boom. Mind blown. Gabe: Exactly, the average person is like, oh, you see the world in black and white, but that’s not what’s actually happening. Just like depression is not this absence of happiness. It’s a painful feeling. It’s a weighted feeling. It’s being pulled into a dark hole. It’s loneliness, it’s emptiness. It’s shallow, it’s awful. It’s, it feels differently from person to person to person, just like colorblindness appears differently person to person to person and but everybody is wandering around like, well, I know what color blindness is. It’s like the whole world was a black and white TV. There. I got it. Solved the problem. Lisa: You are stunningly good at analogies. Gabe: I know, it’s like it’s my job. This leaves the person who is colorblind to think, wow, you don’t get me at all. But what’s worse is you are positive that you do and you won’t listen to me to explain that you don’t get it. I think that’s how people with depression feel. Not only do they not understand you, they’re 100% positive, that they do understand you and unwilling to listen to anything that we have to say to convince them otherwise, which, of course, just deepens that hole. It deepens that loneliness and frustration and, well, frankly, desperation. Lisa: Yeah, it makes it even sadder. Gabe: Today we’re going to talk about coping with depression and maybe some helpful hints, because frankly, I just I think that we can only get tips for dealing with depression from other people who have dealt with and manage depression. So congratulations, everybody, your depressed co-hosts of Not Crazy are here to save the day. Right, Lisa? Lisa: Absolutely. Gabe: Wow, just the most depressing. Lisa: I know Gabe: Absolutely ever, Lisa: Sorry. Well, because I have some Gabe: I just, your energy level is garbage. Lisa: Ok, stop, I want to say something. I want to respond to a point that you made earlier and I’ll figure out how to work it in. You know, I had a friend once who said. Gabe: You know, you don’t have to work it in, you can just you’re always thinking about how do I make a sound better? I think the audience knows that we’re dipshits by now. I don’t I don’t think we’re fooling anybody with our creative edits. They Lisa: You’re not helping Gabe: They know we suck. Make your point. Lisa: You’re not helping me get in the correct zone for point making. Gabe: You don’t need to be in a zone. The point is the point is the point. Your feelings Lisa: Ok, so Gabe: Are irrelevant to facts. Lisa: One time I said to someone, I feel like people who do not have mental illness, cannot understand mental illness, and I was specifically talking about doctors, I feel like my doctor who does not have mental illness does not get it. And she said, well, but isn’t that the truth with everyone? I mean, what if you had diabetes? Would a person who didn’t have diabetes understand it? And. Well, on the one hand, I don’t have diabetes, but yeah, I feel like they would. I feel like it’s not the same. And I don’t know why. I feel like mental illness is different than other things. I feel like I do have an understanding of all these other diseases, diabetes, a broken leg that I do not have. But I feel like I do understand it. But is that me doing the same thing that other people do with mental illness? I don’t know. Gabe: There’s an element of this, right, we’re all arrogant about things Lisa: Right, Gabe: That impact other people. Lisa: That’s the word I’m looking for, arrogance, is this just my own arrogance? I don’t know. Gabe: Somewhat, right? I think it’s all in how much we scratch below the surface, right? Think of like parenting, you know, how everybody who has no children is the perfect Lisa: Right, my kids would be perfect. Gabe: I’m going to pick on my sister because my sister, before she had kids, she just walked around judging everybody’s parents. My kid’ll never throw a temper tantrum in a parking lot. My kid’ll never do this. My kid will never eat that. My kid will never watch this. My kid won’t have that problem. My kid will never back talk me. Yeah. I love my niece. And what I love most about her is that she just proves my sister wrong every single day. Lisa: That does sound enjoyable. Gabe: Yeah, it’s awesome as her big brother, but I don’t have kids, so it’s fun to watch, but it’s not that my sister’s a bad person. She thought that she understood. She observed other parents. She thought about her own upbringing and she formulated these opinions. But when parents were telling her, look, lady, that’s not how it works. My sister was like, pretty sure that’s how it works. And yeah, she’s just done nothing but eat crow since little Eva was born. The difference is, is to my sister’s credit and to many people’s credit, they’re like, yeah, I was wrong. I was completely unprepared for this. I was completely wrong. I am just so wrong. And I think we get that in like other illnesses, like you said, a broken leg. I think that many of us have broken a leg or at least respect the thoughts, views and opinions of somebody who we know who has broken a leg. But when it comes to depression, when it comes to any mental illness, really, but the show’s about depression. People are like, look, you’re describing it incorrectly. And they’re like, no depression of mine will ever behave that way. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: And they just walk away with all of the arrogance of a 20-year-old with no kids judging people who have kids because they’re positive that their child raising skills are superior even though they have no children. I think this allows us not to move forward in educating the public because they think they already know it. Lisa: And this leads to your point of the best place to get advice on how to deal with depression is from people who have depression. Gabe: Yes, and I don’t want everybody to, like, cancel all of their appointments with their therapists and doctors, right. As somebody who lives with depression, as somebody who manages depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety, the first advice that I’m going to give you is work with your therapist and your doctor. Lisa: For your long, long term management, yeah, you need a therapist, you need a doctor, take your meds, do your therapy, we just want to talk a little bit, maybe more around the edges for when you’re having a bad day or things just aren’t quite where you want them to be. This is not about when you’re really bad, when you’re really sick, you’re really deep in the hole. Gabe: We also want to give you a few points, maybe, you know, your mileage may vary about how to talk to your therapist, talk to your doctor, talk to your prescriber, because so often, if they are dismissive, we sort of get handcuffed because we have this idea that perhaps we can’t argue with them. Lisa: Well, yeah, because it’s your fault, it’s on you, Gabe: Well, yeah, it’s on you. Lisa: It’s your mistake, not theirs. Gabe: Yeah, it’s nobody’s mistake, it’s an illness process, I hate this whole oh, my God, the patient is sick. Is it the patient’s fault or the doctor’s fault? It’s depression’s fault. It’s the illness’s fault. Why? Why are we blaming patient or doctor? You know, there’s a third party in the room, dumb asses. It’s the illness’s fault. Lisa: Well, people with mental illness are in a bad position because by definition, your brain is not working correctly or not working optimally. So when your doctor says something and it’s putting it on you, you’re like, well, that makes sense. I’m the problem here, clearly. You’re kind of stuck. Gabe: You’re kind of stuck, but I want people to understand that there are things that they can do to advocate for themselves, and the first thing is, is to tell your doctor, I don’t accept that. I don’t accept that this is my fault and I don’t accept that I am stuck. I want real goals. I want you to tell me what I need to do so that I can mark them down. And if I do those things and I’m not better, then we know it’s not me. In the deepest, darkest depression, and I know that’s hard, keep a lot of notes, find an ally, find a Lisa, find a friend, find somebody to help keep track of this. Don’t talk about depression in this abstract way. I’m depressed. What did you do? I went to a doctor. What’s the goal? To be not depressed. We need hard goals. You know, I’m depressed. What’s the goal? To get dressed in the morning? OK, I want to work with my therapist on how to get dressed in the morning. That’s a real manageable goal. And I’m going to give you a hint. Lisa: Ok, you have a hint? Gabe: I feel that we’ve beat to death this idea that you should work with your doctor, right, Lisa? Like nobody is saying that the Not Crazy podcast is a replacement for medical advice. Agreed? Lisa: Agree, Gabe: Ok, good. Lisa: Strongly agree. Gabe: All right. Let’s start at the beginning of the day. One of the problems that I often have is I just I can’t get out of bed in the morning. Now, I don’t like mean literally can’t. I’m not, like, laying in bed paralyzed or. I just wake up and I look around and I think I don’t want to do this. I don’t. And you remember these depressive episodes, Lisa. It was. Lisa: It was difficult, it was very difficult, but I bet that you have some tips for dealing with that. Gabe: The first thing I want to say is I think this is where severe depression sort of starts, right? This I don’t want to get out of bed or I don’t want to leave my couch or I don’t want to leave my house. Just this. Lisa: It’s an overwhelming apathy. Gabe: Yes, yes, and it’s this like you want to cocoon. Lisa: Yeah, in a big gray blanket. Gabe: Yeah, I don’t know what color my blanket was, but Lisa: Well, no, because it’s gray, because it’s depression. Gabe: Oh, I get it. Lisa: Yeah, a big gray, wet blanket. Gabe: Oh, I don’t know what made it wet, but, Lisa: Tears, Gabe: Yeah, Lisa: Though, not really. Gabe: I don’t think you’re far off, but I have some general tips for this. You know, one of the first things is, as you know, I thought to myself, OK, well, I need to get out of bed. Right. So, Lisa: Step one. Gabe: Yeah, step one, get out of bed. But that’s like really easy to say, right? It’s like, well, I’m depressed. What do I do? You just cheer up. Well, that’s not very helpful. How do you get out of bed? And I think there are some hints and tips to help with even that most basic idea of getting out of bed, put an alarm clock across the room. This has helped me because I have to physically get on my feet to turn off the alarm clock. And the alarm clock is so annoying that it overrides this general desire to stay in bed. Lisa: That is the only way I can get up is if I put the alarm clock on the other side of the room because otherwise, I just turn over and hit it off. But it really annoys my husband Gabe: Well, and. Lisa: Because it goes off so much longer than it would otherwise. Gabe: If you don’t live alone, you can ask a roommate to turn on a light for you. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: Or open your window or, you know, do something like that. That’s what you would do, Lisa. You would come in and open the windows, turn on the light, open the door. But once you’re actually physically on your feet, like, that’s the least of your problems, right? You’re standing up. I mean, chances are having to go to the bathroom will get you out of bed. That part kind of works itself out eventually. So the big indicator for me was personal hygiene. Was showering, you know, am I taking a shower? Am I shaving? Am I brushing my teeth? And. Lisa: For unknown reasons, that was something that you fixated on, it just seemed really overwhelming to you. Strangely, you would do other things, but that particular thing just you couldn’t seem to get past. Gabe: It was so hard. So one of the goals that I made was to get dressed to get like real dressed like. Lisa: Yeah, not pajamas and robe dressed. Gabe: Right, like out in the world and here, here’s the helpful hint, guys, Lisa: Oh, yeah. Gabe: So many people say, well, my goal today is to get dressed OK, but that’s actually like a bunch of little things, right? Get dressed is the conclusion. There’s actually quite a few steps, right? There’s getting out of bed. There’s shaving, there’s taking a shower, there’s brushing your teeth, there’s washing your hair. There’s putting on clean underwear, clean socks and picking out clothes is even on there. And one of the ways that I helped myself a real great deal was I listed all of those things one at a time in order. Step one, get out of bed, step two, shave, step three, get in shower, step four, shampoo. And you’re thinking, wow, that’s like really cumbersome. But the one it is. But who cares? We’re moving forward. But it let me cross a lot of little things off the list. Now, you remember Lisa. Lisa: He would literally cross them off the list. Gabe: And I wrote them on the mirror in my bathroom because most bathroom mirrors, if you buy a dry erase marker, you can just write it right on there. Actually, I was wrong, pick out clothes was the first thing I put on the list. And I could usually cross that one off before I went to bed. Lisa: Getting a jump start on the day. Gabe: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to bed with a win. We tend to do this like people say, I want to graduate college, OK, that’s a good goal. But could you imagine if you showed up to college on your first day and you asked the admissions people are like, hey, what do I need to do? And they said, you need to graduate college. OK, but how? By going to college. Graduating college is the conclusion. Getting dressed, getting ready, facing the day. That’s the conclusion. Write it out. Give yourself credit along the way. Lisa: You did have like a five-point list that you wrote on the mirror almost every day. Gabe: Yeah. Lisa: And it was like shower, shave, brush teeth. And you went straight down the list with the marker and crossed it off as you went. It seemed to make you very happy. Gabe: I don’t know, there was something cathartic almost about accomplishing things, and you’re thinking to yourself, if you’re like me anyway, well, those are so stupid, those are stupid accomplishments. And if you’ve never been in the midst of really serious depression, I can understand that knee jerk reaction that that writing, you know, shave and then crossing it off is stupid. Lisa: It worked, though. Gabe: I’m telling you, the day before, I did nothing. Nothing. So, when all I did in a day was brush my teeth, comb my hair, shave, put on clean underwear, get dressed, that was an amazing accomplishment. And then I started building on the list, go get the mail, drive and get a Diet Coke or a cup of coffee. It just built until one day I realized that I was just doing this stuff automatically in the quote unquote normal amount of time and. Lisa: You didn’t need the list anymore. Gabe: I didn’t need the list anymore, and I would usually just realize, oh, huh, I didn’t write the list, life would just sort of move on. And we think to ourselves, well, why should I give myself credit for brushing my teeth? Because it’s hard. It’s hard for people like us. It’s an accomplishment for people like us. Don’t shame your success. Celebrate it. Well, other people don’t need to do this. First off, you don’t know what’s written on other people’s mirrors. All right? You just don’t. That’s number one thing. And number two, who cares? They’re not living your life. You’re living your life. This puts you in the best position. Lisa: You still do it occasionally, Gabe: Occasionally I do, Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: It’s still a coping skill that I use, you know, another coping skill that I use, Lisa, that that you taught me Lisa: Oh, Gabe: That. Yeah. Lisa: I’m sure this is a good one. Gabe: This is a super important, are you ready? Lisa: Ok, I’m ready. Gabe: Sleep hygiene. Lisa: We all know how much Gabe loves to talk about sleep hygiene. Gabe: Anybody that’s been a long-time listener of Gabe Howard knows how much I love sleep hygiene; I cannot overstate that I believe that sleep drives my mental health, my bipolar, anxiety, mania, depression more than anything else. It’s also an incredible predictor. But this all starts with respecting sleep and knowing how to manage it. And normally I give this whole big speech about everything that I know about sleep hygiene, but I learned it from Lisa. So, real treat everybody. Lisa is going to teach us sleep hygiene. Lisa: Ok, sleep hygiene means having a consistent routine and a consistent waking up and going to bed time, that can be so difficult when you’re depressed. Like Gabe says, nobody respects sleep. You should use your bed only for sleep and sex. That’s it. Don’t have your TV in the bedroom. Don’t be playing with your phone before you go to sleep. None of that. Sleep and sex, that’s it. Gabe: It’s so simple, it’s almost annoying, right? First off, sleep is just as important as food. Just hear me on that one. It is just as important as food. If you eat garbage all day, you will feel like shit. If you don’t get enough sleep, you will feel like shit. Those things go together. Lisa: Well, but when people talk about health, they always talk about diet and exercise, but no one ever throws in sleep. Diet, exercise and sleep, they should have equal footing. Gabe: They really, really, really should, but for some reason they don’t, so I am going to fix that. Like that’s my mission. A lot of people hear where are you supposed to go to bed and get up at the same time? And they’re like, well, but with depression, I can’t control when I fall asleep. And what if I stay up all night ruminating or, you know, anxiety follows my depression around pretty easily where I just get caught in this feedback loop and I stay up later and later and later. Yeah, it’s really rough when that same time in the morning comes around and I’ve only gotten two hours sleep and people say to me, well but sleep is so important, Gabe, then you should just sleep all day, otherwise you’re going to have a really bad day. You’re going to be irritable, you’re going to be grumpy, you’re not going to get that sleep. Yeah, all of those things are true except for the part where you don’t get up anyway and you’re thinking to yourself, why would I do that to myself for a day? Because otherwise you’re going to do that to yourself for two days a week, four days. You’re going to get your routine all messed up. You’re going to get your sleep cycle off. One bad day is awful. So, imagine seven bad days. I once got my sleep schedule, so out of whack, I don’t think I knew up from down for a month and that all could have been avoided by having one bad day. Now, Lisa, the only use your bedroom for sleep and sex thing really throws a lot of people because a lot of people use their bedrooms as a sanctuary away Lisa: Right, Gabe: From children, Lisa: Roommates. Gabe: Roommates. It would be nice if everybody listening had multiple rooms in their house and they could just dedicate a room. But there are still things that you can do in your bedroom to make sure that your bed is only used for sleep and sex. One thing is to have a chair in your room if you can. So if you are going to have a TV in there, don’t watch TV in bed, sit in the chair next to your bed and watch the TV. That way, when you’re in the bed, it still creates this demarcation. Lisa: Well, it even if you can’t do that for some reason, you have a really small apartment, have a consistent bedtime routine, that these are the things I do before I go to sleep. You brush your teeth, put on your jammies, whatever, sit in that chair and read for 20 minutes. You have a consistent routine that you do every night, no matter what. I personally sometimes do not give enough credit to sleep. When I get really depressed, you just start ruminating on those thoughts. And for me, I think staying up late is actually a form of procrastination. You know how you always tell little kids the sooner you go to bed, the sooner Santa will be here? Well, yeah, the sooner you go to bed, the sooner tomorrow will be here. And all the things that you have to do tomorrow will be here. So if you stay up, you can put that off. Yeah, it always is self-defeating. Gabe: Well, it’s self-sabotage, especially for you, Lisa. Lisa: Yeah, I get so much more emotional when I haven’t slept, I’m just on the knife’s edge and I can’t restore my equilibrium if I’m tired. Gabe: When we talk about managing depression, it would just be ludicrous to not just point out how important sleep is to managing mental health. Lisa: And no one ever talks about it. Your doctor will ask you about your diet or your exercise, they never ask you about your sleep. It’s weird. Gabe: But thankfully, Gabe and Lisa are on the case, honestly, you would be crazy not to get enough sleep. Lisa: And again, it’s one of those things that’s so simplistic. Really? I have this life-threatening illness and you want me to make sure to go to bed on time? Yeah, Gabe: Yes, Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, Gabe: Yeah, Lisa: I do. Yeah, Gabe: Yeah, yeah, I do. Lisa: It’s not bullshit. Seriously, I speak from experience. Gabe: We also need to think outside of the box. I am very fortunate I can use my bedroom just for sleep and sex. I’ve got the whole rest of the house. But when I travel, for example, if the hotel room has a chair, I sit in the chair to watch TV rather than sit on the bed. Now, if I have to sit on the bed, I don’t get under the covers and I stay in my clothes. So Lisa: That’s a good one. Gabe: The idea is to be creative around this so that you are setting up a routine so that when you get into bed, your body knows it’s time to sleep. Another thing that I highly recommend is a white noise machine. Turn on the white noise machine only when you’re ready to go to bed, turn everything else off. A fan is very helpful. Turn on the white noise machine and the fan when you go to bed, that air across your body, being under the covers, being in pajamas or all of these things just indicate this is what you do when you sleep. And then it’s repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat. We can say until we’re blue in the face that Lisa doesn’t respect sleep, but Lisa is not uncommon. Lisa, along with sleep hygiene, what are some other things that you think that people can do to manage their depression in a helpful and meaningful way? Lisa: Well, again, the idea of having a schedule is so important, so you’re getting up at the same time every day, and one of the things that might help you keep to a schedule maybe is a pet. Gabe: Really, you’re advising people to get a living creature. Should we start with a plant? Lisa: Well, maybe you should start with a plant, maybe a hamster, hamsters are really nice. Gabe: Well, you know, that’s very interesting, actually, I’m really glad that you pointed that out. You know, in my mind, dog. Everybody is going to run out and buy a 100-pound German shepherd. But you are right, there’s pocket pets. I said plant and you brought up hamster. Do you think that the I’m really trying hard not to say, hey, do you think depressed people can take care of hamsters? Lisa: Yes, actually, I do, because it gives you something else to focus on, something else to think about, something that isn’t just about you. It’s someone else, something else that is counting on you. And depending on the pet, especially right now, COVID time, if you’re not getting a lot of human interaction, you have your pet. You know, it’s something that provides you with affection and you could get that dog and cuddle with it and pet it and it’s just it’s very soothing. Gabe: Lisa, you had a hamster. Lisa: I did have a hamster as a child. I loved my hamster a lot. Gabe: I was hoping that you would just open yourself up and just confess to the people your love of your hamster. What was your hamster’s name? Lisa: Twitchell. Gabe: Twitchell. Tell everybody about little depressed Lisa taking care of little Twitchell. Lisa: I was a troubled kid, I had a lot of trouble with depression, I didn’t have a lot of friends, I was very lonely and I got a hamster. As I think back about it now, it’s actually really depressing. I’m actually feeling a little bit emotional. I’m 40 and I’m getting emotional thinking about the rodent I had that died when I was 10, but I was ridiculously attached to this hamster. Her name was Twitchell because her nose twitched. I thought that was incredibly clever. It just gave me something else to love, you know, because like I said, I was lonely and there was nobody else around. Gabe: And it wasn’t just about loving, it was also about the routine of caring for Twitchell. Lisa: Yeah, because you had to feed her, you had to take care of her cage, and of course, you want to do that at the same time every day and that you felt this responsibility. I have to be at least up and alert enough to do these things or I’m letting her down, you know, so you have this responsibility to someone else and maybe you don’t have the incentive to get up and get going for yourself, but you do for your pet. Gabe: Now, Lisa, you moved on from Twitchell when you were a little older, you got a turtle and now I was fascinated by this because when I met Lisa, she had a turtle and she was like, well, I’ve had that turtle since I was 10. I was like, that’s not true, that turtles don’t live that long. And she was like, turtles live like 50, 60 years. And I was like, well, I’ve only seen the little turtles. And Lisa said. Lisa: You know, I hate that. Oh, when I was a kid, I had the little turtles. Babies? No, no, no, not the babies, the little ones. Babies, those are babies. Everyone’s like, no, no, no. That’s a different breed of turtle that stays small. Yeah, it’s a baby. And then they’ll say things like, no, no, no. I had that turtle for like a year and it never got any bigger. Yeah, because you weren’t taking good care of it. It was a baby. Gabe: It’s extraordinarily important that any pet that you get, you make sure that you can care for the pet. Lisa: Yes. Gabe: And that you have a backup plan in the event that you cannot. Now don’t run out and grab a pet thinking the pet is going to solve all of your problems, make sure that you are ready for the pet and that you have a backup plan. Backup plans are very important when caring for living creatures. I cannot stress enough that you might want to start with a plant. This is not advice for the severely depressed. This is an advanced skill. We wanted to mention pets because the research is just clearly there, but we don’t want everybody running out getting a pet that they, you know, slowly torture and kill. I think that’s what we’re trying to say, Lisa. Lisa: Well, keep in mind, even among pocket pets, they could be a lot more difficult to take care of, especially reptiles and birds, people do not realize the amount of work and effort that’s involved in properly caring for them. And obviously, you don’t want to get a pet so that you can take poor care of it. So this is a bit of advanced skill. Make sure you do your research. I owned reptiles for decades and they just take a lot more work than most people think. Gabe: As somebody who suffers from depression, I got to tell you, my dog, I love my dog. My dog absolutely helps with my depression. It helps with my routine. I’ve got to care for this dog. I feel a sense of pride in watching him, caring for him, molding him, taking him to the vet. Lisa: And responsibility. Gabe: Yeah, I cannot be more clear that Peppy is a point of pride and success for me, but that said, I want to make sure that I do right by him even when I’m sick. It’s of vital importance to understand that. So we have sort of a happy medium, which is volunteer at the Humane Society, find a shelter. Lisa: Then you could pet things. Gabe: Then you can play with the pets, care for the pets, be around the pets, but also then you can go home. Lisa, you have, I don’t remember, did you ever volunteer for any sort of animal shelter? Lisa: Yeah, because I didn’t want to have a dog in my house and I couldn’t afford it, but I wanted to be able to pet them. Gabe: I remember that I fostered a kitten for a few weeks. Do you remember because when I fostered Lisa: I do remember. Gabe: That kitten, you were like Gabe got a kitten. I was like, I’m just a foster. Six weeks, and then the kitten was adopted. But that was a really good experience because, one, it was temporary. And two, I had the agency checking in on me. So fostering was actually a great step for me. And I got to play with the kitten. Lisa: And also, I’m sure if your neighbor or someone you know has a dog, they’ll let you walk it. Dogs can walk for days. If you say, hey, can I take your dog for a walk? They will totally let you do it because, yeah, no one can walk a dog as much as the dog wishes to be walked. Gabe: You know, I just thought of a service that Kendall and I use to take care of Peppy sometimes, I’m not going to mention the name, but it’s just an app. It’s sort of like Uber for people who walk dogs, take care of pets, you know, check in on them. You can play with other people’s dogs, walk other people’s dogs and make a little money. Just Google Uber of dog walkers. They didn’t pay us. And I’m not certainly referring them. I just I wonder, everybody so far that’s taken care of Peppy from that service has had a day job. I wonder how many of those folks are like, hey, I get to play with puppies and make a little extra money. Sort of reminds me of, like, people like I don’t join a gym. I’m a mover on the weekends. Lisa: That is an excellent idea that I might wow, think of all the money you’d save. But pets give you something else to focus on and they’re a source of uncomplicated affection. Gabe: Back in a minute after these messages. Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player. Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. Lisa: We’re back, talking about depression management. Gabe: You know, Lisa, we’ve been kind of doing a combo deal here where we tell you how you can play with pets and volunteer, but volunteerism in and of itself is a way to help avoid, alleviate and lift yourself up out of depression. Lisa: Studies are very clear that volunteerism works, it gives you that something to regularize your schedule, it gives you a place to go, it gives you responsibility, and it gives you that social interaction. Gabe: It also gives you success, right? I just I used to be a volunteer manager and I called it the warm and fuzzy feeling. You know, everybody said volunteers work for free. No, they don’t. Volunteers do not work for free. They work for that warm and fuzzy feeling. You must connect their efforts with accomplishment, with success. That’s what they want. And I think this is really relevant and important for people who suffer from depression, because a lot of times we feel like we just feel like we’re not doing any good in the world Lisa: Right. Lisa: And volunteering gives you those positive accolades. Gabe: You know, Lisa, we’re very aware of all of the common volunteer activities, you know, volunteering in a soup kitchen or volunteering with animals. But, you know, the mental health community has so many open volunteer opportunities that I don’t think people look into. Now, you want to make sure that your own recovery is very stable and sturdy before you move into them. But I hate it when people who live with mental illness don’t volunteer for our causes because, well frankly, we do have a hard time securing volunteers. Lisa: Yes, it is a difficult thing, stigma is everywhere. And so, in your community, do you have a drop in center? Do you have a clubhouse program? Is there someplace that you could go to help out? Gabe: Also, don’t discount volunteering for a fundraiser. Lisa: Yeah, fundraising is what keeps the lights on. Gabe: My first foray into mental health volunteerism was for a mental health walk. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: My volunteerism was I was a team captain. I put together a team, I raised some money. I showed up on Walk day, and then I grew from there. That was the first year, you remember it was called Gabe’s Group. Lisa: Yeah, we got matching T-shirts. Gabe: Yeah, we’re original at making names. The next year they asked me to do more, right. Not only was I a team captain, but I also gave a speech training other team captains and like getting people excited. And then the year after that, we volunteered to help organize the walk and put up signs. And there’s always stuff that you can do, like look around when you’re at a fundraiser. You know, at the end of it, everybody goes home, ask them if they need help tearing down, you know, all those sponsor signs that you saw along the walk path? Somebody needs to walk that walk path again and take them down. We love volunteers that can help do this. And it makes such a huge difference. I’m sure you can think of a dozen more easy mental health volunteer ideas that you can do no matter what level of recovery you’re in. Lisa: Yes, don’t discount. Just because you can’t do a lot doesn’t mean you can’t do a little. There’s all sorts of things you could do. Get on the list to help stuff envelopes, pass out literature. You know, how you go to the library and there’s a bulletin board and it has a flier for that group? Someone had to go there and put it there. Be the person who does that. There are so many opportunities. Gabe: The most important thing is to get engaged, call up the local nonprofits in an area that’s meaningful to you like mental health and say, look, I don’t know what I can do, but here is my skill set. Here is my available time. Utilize me. Now, remember, it’s not instantaneous right. They’re not going to be like, oh, my God, tomorrow, come in. It’s a slow build. And because you don’t know where they are, especially with COVID and the pandemic. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: There’s a lot less, unfortunately, right now. But keep an ear to the ground, ask if they have an email list and get signed up for it. The point is, is giving back. It matters. It mattered to me. Lisa, I believe it matters to you. Lisa: Of course, and there’s actual evidence to back this up, studies conclusively show that volunteering helps depression. Gabe: One of the advanced volunteer activities, of course, is peer support, leading a support group, teaching classes. There’s a lot of national mental health charities that will train you to be a support group facilitator or coordinator or teach various classes that they offer. Now, I want to be very, very clear. You need to make sure that you are secure in your stability. Lisa: And you’re pretty far along in your own recovery. Gabe: Yeah, but it absolutely helps prevent relapse. It prevents depression, it gives you that, you know, that weekly you know, oomph, that success. Now, Lisa is a trained teacher. She taught classes. They were 12-week classes once a week for 12 weeks. I am a support group facilitator. Every Thursday for a year and a half, I sat in a church basement and facilitated a mental health support group. And we both can just not say enough about that. But we grew from smaller volunteerism. Lisa, why did you sign up to be a teacher? Lisa: The truth? Because I had attended the class and I thought it was great and it helped me so much and I talked to the director of the group and said, oh, my goodness, this class is amazing. You need to have more of them. You need to get more people to take this class. And she looked at me and said, we don’t have more classes because we don’t have enough teachers. And I thought, oh, walked right into that. I’m not going to be able to say no now. And how many years ago was that? And here we are. Gabe: Oh, yeah. Years and years and years, I just want to set the proper expectations of where you are in your recovery, will determine what kind of volunteer opportunities are available for you. When I first started, I liked the open ended. You know, we accept volunteers between noon and five, you know, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If you’re here, great. If you’re not, you’re not. And then I built into OK, we’re counting on you. We need you here at noon every Wednesday. I build into that. And some volunteer opportunities, they come with training. Lisa, you had to take a, I believe, a forty-hour training class and like a certified peer supporter is, I believe, a 60-hour training class, at least in the state of Ohio. Different states have different things. To become a facilitator for the mental health support group that I led, I actually had to travel to another city, stay in a hotel for three nights and have a pretty intensive training over three days. Lisa: So, these are more of your advanced skills, but to get a start, stuff some envelopes, do some data entry, pick up litter on the walk path. There’s always something. Gabe: And this leads us straight in to stay connected. I know that when I was sick, I just wanted to shut the world out. Lisa: You didn’t have the energy. Gabe: I didn’t want anybody to see me and I didn’t want to see them and staying connected was so valuable, I was very fortunate. I did not cultivate a group. A group cultivated me. They were my mom and dad. They were my siblings who checked in on me. They were friends that even though I did everything I could to get rid of them. Well, Lisa kept coming over. I think that sometimes I could have dipped a lot lower, but people were banging on my door asking me if I was OK and I cannot stress how I just I did so little to deserve that. It’s not like something that I worked on. So my advice to you is if you have people that are banging on your door when you are well, thank them. Thank them so much. Just be like, thank you for checking in on me. When things are great, praise them for caring about you enough to show up at your house unannounced after you’ve ignored their phone call for four days. Lisa, thank you for showing up at my house unannounced. Lisa: You’re welcome. Gabe: After I ignored your phone call for four days. But what are some things that you can do to cultivate that group if you don’t have one, if you’re not as fortunate as I was? Lisa: Well, yeah, long term you’re going to want to cultivate that group and basically just go out there and make friends, and you could do that through volunteering, through joining activities that you enjoy, your family, your workplace. So that’s a long-term plan for long term management. But in those acute moments when you’re really sick, force yourself, even though you don’t want to. Get up and go out with the friend who’s inviting you or answer the door or answer the phone call, you just have to force yourself because that keeps you connected to that group. Gabe: Now, when we say force yourself, obviously, if you need medical attention, get medical attention, but if you’re wavering, I cannot tell you how many times I was like, you know what, I don’t want to. And I. Lisa: Because you feel like it doesn’t have immediate benefit in the moment, and you’ve got enough going on. You’re like, oh, I just can’t deal with that right now. It’s just not worth it. But it is worth it. It will definitely bring you long term benefits and it also brings you short term benefits. So, when you’re waffling, oh, God, do I have the energy for this? I don’t know. I’m just going to stay home. Don’t. It’s a bad idea. Gabe: And this is where cultivation really, really matters, one of the things that I did in my social circle was, again, when we were well. You know, so many, Lisa: When you’re well. Gabe: Yes. Lisa: You got to set this up when you’re well. Gabe: Nobody wants to discuss mental illness and mental health issues and depression when they’re well, they want to pretend that it’s never coming back. Listen, it’s going to come back. Lisa: It’s coming back, yeah. Gabe: So I cannot stress this enough. But Lisa and I, we know when to push each other and we also know when to be honest with each other. So I say to Lisa, hey, let’s go out to dinner and she’ll be like, you know, I just don’t want to leave my house. And I’ll be like, OK. See, the first thing that Lisa did right was tell me the truth. She told me, I just don’t want to leave my house. Lisa: Yeah, don’t try to find an excuse, because then they’re going to find out that your excuse isn’t real, then it’s going to be a whole thing. Gabe: Right, step number two is ask some questions. Hey, Lisa, what’s going on? Is there a reason that you don’t want to leave? Is there anything I can do? Is there something that I can do to make it better? You know, I suggested this really loud, busy restaurant late at night. What if we go more low key? What if we go to the local diner? What if we just go to a fast-food restaurant? What if we just go to a coffee shop and just sit and talk? Would that help? Lisa: Or maybe something super low key? What if I just come over with a pizza? Gabe: The point is, is by setting this up when you’re well, I know that I can trust Lisa to tell her the truth, which is that I just don’t want to leave my house. And Lisa knows that I have given her permission to push a little and say, you know, look, let’s alter the plan. You know, what can we do? If you don’t want to go out on a Friday night because it’s busy, let’s change to breakfast on Saturday, that kind of thing. And it doesn’t always work. You know, Lisa and I have, you know, certainly pissed each other off a lot by pushing, but it works more than you think. But for me, Lisa, trusting me enough to say, hey, look, I’m just too anxious, depressed, moody, whatever to leave my house, that’s like really meaningful when it comes to cultivating relationships because she trusts me with this. This is not the kind of thing that you tell somebody you don’t trust. This is the kind of thing that you tell a real friend. Your friends will pick up on this. But again, I have to stress. Lisa: Gotta, you got to cover your bases when you’re well, Gabe: When you’re well. Lisa: You’re going to need to build up credit, friend credit in the bank, when you’re well because you’re not going to be able to do it when you’re sick. To find that friend that doesn’t mind your bad moods or your dark moods, you’re going to need someone that you’re really coming through for when you’re well. And how well do you know your friends? If they’re saying, oh, no, I can’t do it, I can’t go out, I’m too depressed, how hard can you push? How hard can you insist? No, look, you need to do this. It’s for your own good. Come on, let’s go. And at what point do you need to back off? It’s a difficult skill. Gabe: I really can’t stress enough that part of managing depression is managing your support group, cultivating those friendships and managing the people around you, and this means that you need to have conversations when you’re sick, when you’re not sick, when you’re perfect, when you’re, you know, wavering a little bit. It just needs to be this constant communication. And one of the reasons that is, is because of their own boundaries as well. You know, maybe they’re willing to adjust their plans for you. Hey, Gabe, are you ready to go out this Friday? You know, I just really don’t want to leave my house, OK? Look, I’ve got tickets to my favorite music group or sporting event. And you being melancholy or dragging me down is not something that I’m willing to do with hundred- and fifty-dollar tickets. So you know what? I’ll catch up with you tomorrow. I love you. Thank you for being honest with me and thank you for not dragging down my event. They need to be aware of this as well. And you need to not be offended by that, because I got to tell you, Gabe: I have ruined more than one event for Lisa where she would have preferred that I not tried, that I would have stayed home and she would have caught up with me the next day. That’s why this constant communication needs to happen. It also needs to happen when you screw up. You know, Lisa, one of the things that causes me the most amount of depression is when I know, when I know that my depression has impacted you and not talking to you about it just makes it worse. The important thing to remember here is that you need to have ongoing communication with your support system, with your friends in order to cultivate a real relationship. You need to be talking about this always, not just when you need something, not just when you’re in crisis. It can’t be the elephant in the room. And people wonder when it’s going to wreck the day. You need to weave it into your relationships because it’s just so incredibly vital to who we are as people. We suffer from depression. That’s who we are. Lisa: We all think it’s not going to come back when we’re well and it is. It’s going to come back and you need to be ready for that. Gabe: And when you’re ready for it, it really, really lessens its impact and having these conversations with your friends lets you avoid things like biting off more than you can chew and ruining their event. It allows them to help you. But remember, it’s really important that when you’re well, you repay people and repayment is not give them money or buy them dinner. No, when things are going well, let them pick. If you wrecked somebody’s weekend, make up for it later. Don’t dwell on the fact that you wrecked it. Make a plan to fix it. You know, Lisa, I wrecked a great many. Lisa: Yeah, there was some high points. Gabe: Yeah, yeah, and one of the things that Lisa and I finally learned is, one, I need to be honest when I can’t do it, because that allows Lisa to make other plans of somebody that’s not going to wreck the plans. Right. We can all agree with that. Lisa: Those were expensive tickets, that’s all I’m saying. Gabe: But it also made me, when I was well, find things that Lisa wanted to do, you know, how many times I’ve gone to Red Lobster with Lisa? Lisa: Red Lobster is delicious. Gabe: I hate this place. Like there’s nothing in there that I like, but it’s one of Lisa’s favorite restaurants. It’s probably her favorite chain restaurant, right? Lisa: I can’t help it. Yeah, it probably is my favorite chain restaurant. Gabe: Yeah, I hate this place, it’s awful, it’s awful in every way, but but Lisa: Lobsterfest? Gabe: Yeah. Lisa: I’m so sad for you that you don’t have the joy of Lobsterfest. Gabe: But I go to these things because it’s meaningful to Lisa and Lisa is like, hey, Gabe has no reason to do this. He doesn’t want to. These are the kind of things that build you goodwill. And also an apology goes a long way. So many people are like, why do I have to apologize for my illness? Yeah, it’s not your fault, but. Lisa: It’s your responsibility. Whose fault is it? Gabe: Yeah, it’s not their fault either, right? Lisa, doesn’t it suck to have to apologize for something is not your fault? Lisa: Yeah, something that you can’t control, but, hey, life isn’t fair. Gabe: It really reminds me, you know, Lisa and I have a really good friend who gets migraines and she’s constantly apologizing when the migraines, frankly, interrupt our plans. But, yeah, it’s not our fault we didn’t give her a migraine. Lisa: Right. So what do you do with that? Gabe: Yeah, so she says, I’m sorry, we say we know it’s cool, what can we do to help? But imagine if she went the other way. Look, I have a migraine. It’s not my problem. All right? I didn’t do it. It’s not my fault. Could you imagine the reaction to that? Lisa: No one would tolerate that. Gabe: Yeah, we’ll be like, look, I’m sorry you have a migraine, but I didn’t do anything. You can almost hear it now. That’s how we have to be with mental illness. I know it’s rough because it feels like stigma. It feels like discrimination and it feels like one more thing that’s put upon us. But the reality is, is anybody managing any illness would probably have to apologize for it. I mean, look, you know, I threw up on Lisa’s mom. It wasn’t my fault, but I definitely owed an apology for it. Lisa: Well, longtime listeners know there’s more to that story, but of course, we don’t hold it against Gabe because he was so apologetic after it happened. Gabe: I felt terrible. Lisa: He definitely made amends. Gabe: But could you imagine if I would have said, hey, I’m five days postop, this ain’t my problem? Lisa: Yeah, screw you. I didn’t mean to. Gabe: I’m not going to offer to clean your car up. Nobody holds it against me because I apologized and because Lisa: And corrected it. Gabe: I was truly sorry and because I made amends and now it’s just, now it’s just a funny story that’s lying in another episode of the podcast that you can dig through and find. And I don’t come off so well, but much like managing depression, I did not manage my post op too well and well, that did give me just a slight bit of culpability. Lisa: But again, no one is holding a grudge because you apologized in a sincere way. Gabe: Lisa, to wrap all this up in a nice bow, you know, managing depression is difficult and it’s one more thing that we have to work on. If you could boil this all down to like one piece of advice, what would it be? What’s like the most important thing to remember when managing depression? Lisa: I don’t know if it’s the most important thing, but something that it was always very helpful to me that a doctor recommended years ago was to make sure that you take time to do things you enjoy. And you’re thinking, I’m depressed, I don’t enjoy anything. Well, try to think of things that you enjoy when you’re not depressed, stuff that you normally enjoy, even if you’re not having a good time with it now. A lot of times when I get depressed, I think, well, I don’t really want to go do that activity because it’s just too much effort. But also, I know I’m not going to enjoy it, and that just makes the depression worse. It becomes this cycle because now I’m not having a good time and I know that I should be having a good time, but I’m not. That’s just really depressing. And you feel like you’re almost wasting your effort. You know, I have a finite amount that I can do this. I’m not going to waste it when I’m in such a bad mood, but it kind of pulls you out of it. I was surprised at how well that worked for me. Forcing yourself to do things that you normally enjoy is extremely beneficial. Gabe: The reality is, is when we only focus on the things that we hate, dislike or that remind us of being lonely, then yeah, that’s all we can focus on. Find the little things, a rerun of a television show that made you laugh or that you have fond memories of just anything, anything to pull you out of it. It really does matter in just a really, really meaningful way. Lisa: And keep in mind, if you have reached recovery, you know it’s possible. I don’t want to say something so simplistic as, oh, this too shall pass, but it is cyclical. I have periods of depression and eventually, through treatment, it gets better. So, it can get better. It will get better. And you know that it will because that’s what has happened to you in the past and that will happen again. You just have to wait it out. Gabe: You know, Lisa, it really sounds like you’re saying that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Lisa: Ooohh, the best predictor of future success is past success, so you know, what you’ve done in the past that has helped and what has hurt? Try to focus on the helped. Gabe: Rinse and repeat, just like your favorite shampoo. Thanks, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode of the Not Crazy podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and I am the author of Mental Illnesses Is an Asshole and Other Observations, which, of course, you can get on Amazon.com. But if you want to get it for less money, if you want me to sign it and you want Not Crazy podcast swag, they’re really cool stickers, head over to gabehoward.com and buy it there. I will personally mail it to you with the help of Lisa. Lisa: I was going to say, you’re not doing that personally, I will mail it to you. Don’t worry, it will get there. Gabe: Wherever you downloaded this podcast, please subscribe. Also rank and review, write a review. Use your words and let other people know why they should listen. Lisa: And we’ll see you next Tuesday. Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. The post Podcast: Depression Management Hints and Tips first appeared on World of Psychology. View the full article
  3. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration announced today in a Drug Safety Communication that it is requiring an update to the Boxed Warning, the agency's most prominent safety warning, and requiring class-wide labeling changes for benzodiazepines to include the risks of abuse, misuse, addiction, physical dependence and withdrawal reactions to help improve their safe use. View the full article
  4. I promise to choose you, in good times and in bad. Till death do us part. I was in my early twenties when I pledged those words to my husband. Like many young brides, I promised these things without having experienced a lot of life. Difficult times did come: a miscarriage, health scares, layoffs, losing two parents to long illnesses, and more. But we plowed through and came out on the other side stronger, proudly wearing our scars; living proof that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. It felt like there was nothing we couldn’t handle. We are bullet proof, he always says. Then, something happened that we could not just simply plow through and overcome: my husband was diagnosed with chronic depression. Fast forward a couple of years later, with the right medical support, proper medication and education, we are not only in a good place, we are in a better place than we ever were. We have a deeper understanding of who we are and what we need — forever changed by this new truth that will always be a part of us. My husband’s diagnosis was the hardest and greatest thing that happened to our family. Here are some ways that it has changed our family for the better: 1. We talk frequently and openly about mental illness. We talk regularly as a family about how everyone is feeling. We explain how some brains work differently than others and how medication, nutrition, sleep and exercise can affect our moods. We talk about the chemicals in our body. We talk about drugs, hormones, anger, sadness and anxiety. We encourage our kids to talk to us about anything that makes them feel different, free of judgement. This is a place where you can bring your complete self. You will always be loved, heard and safe. 2. We put the odds in our favor. My father repeated this throughout my childhood: luck is a residue of design so put the odds in your favor. We all have triggers that cause us not to be our best selves. As an introvert, I need at least an hour each day where I am alone to read, write, listen to a podcast or do something creative. This time is necessary for me to be a patient mom, a supportive partner and a pleasant human the other 23 hours of the day. My husband needs something else: a good night’s sleep, his morning medication and he feels his best when he is eating healthy, exercising regularly and getting out of the house for a daily change in scenery. Through trial, error, observation and many conversations, we’ve learned more about what we need to be the best version of ourselves. This is what we intentionally and deliberately prioritize each day. This allows us to live like the odds are forever in our favor. Thanks Dad. 3. We accept that there will be bad days. Living with depression means you will have good days and bad days. We expect these to happen and remember that not every day will be like this. Bad days are temporary; we acknowledge them and try not to dwell over them more than we should. We forgive quickly and completely. There will be many good days too and we never take those days for granted. We don’t pretend to be perfect or thrive to be flawless. In this family, when you are unlovable, we come together and love you harder until you are ready to love yourself again. My husband talks about his depression journey every chance he gets. He selflessly takes any opportunity to help someone and make them feel like they are not alone. I’ve never felt the things he describes feeling. But I have lived through the heartbreak and the bad days. I’ve also seen how this has given us the tools to prepare our children, who might inherit this disease, to recognize the signs of mental illness. I’ve learned how to make choices that increase our chances at happiness. I’ve learned that perfection is not the goal. And after every storm, the sun always shines again. Bullet proof, he says. After 19 years, I can honestly say that there is no one else I would rather be taking bullets with. The post How My Husband’s Chronic Depression Forever Changed Our Family -- for the Better first appeared on World of Psychology. View the full article
  5. Thirty years ago, the atmosphere surrounding mental health and suicide was very different than it is today, especially in some areas. Even today, where you live could affect the information, help, and reactions you receive. Since that time, I’ve learned a better way to respond when a loved one struggles. If someone you care about changes in some way, something may be wrong. The difficulties go beyond available support. According to statistics, most people who ultimately end their lives are dealing with a mental illness or behavior disorder — whether they realize it or not — though this is not always true. Excessive stress or a combination of things can be factors that also might lead to thoughts of suicide. Signs? Sometimes there are none. Sometimes changes in personality are complicated by attempts to self-medicate with substances like alcohol or drugs or excessive behaviors such as spending money wildly or doing something uncharacteristic such as making sudden major decisions about lifestyle or beliefs. These are just a few examples. Sometimes you may have only a vague feeling a problem exists; not everyone displays telltale behavior changes. To complicate matters, not all changes like this are serious, especially in the volatile teen years, though young people and children can become mentally ill. If you think there might be a problem or if you feel you need help yourself, here is what I want you to know. Mental health is a spectrum that affects us all. We can fall on various points of the spectrum at different times in our lives, and stress does affect our mental health. Appropriate care is important just as it is for the rest of your body. There is no shame in seeking help for mental health or behavioral issues. If others disagree, they are either inexperienced or ill-informed. Be patient and either share what you learn with them or minimize contact if it hinders your well-being or that of your loved one. Millions of people live successful and productive lives while dealing with mental issues. Throughout human history, this includes some of the most creative, intelligent, and kind individuals. You can do this. There is always hope for improvement. Learning about your condition and following through with mental health professionals takes time, but if you feel you do not have a good match, seek help elsewhere. Staying with it is worth the effort. Today, there are many tools that can help. It’s okay to ask questions, and it’s okay to have boundaries that you ask others to respect. Support of all kinds can help. Family and friends, as well as professionals such as counselors and nutritionists, peers taking care of their own mental health, and support groups can be part of your wellness team. If you have co-occurring problems, these need to be addressed, too. Alcohol Anonymous (AA) meetings are offered virtually now as well as locally, and confidentiality is respected. Other groups operate in similar ways. Ask your doctor for guidance if you need help with withdrawing from drugs or alcohol. Counselors can help you work through relationship or family issues. The stress of life and of dealing with mental illnesses, behavioral disorders, and substance abuse or familial problems may seem overwhelming sometimes, but there are coping strategies and options for medications you can use. If thoughts of suicide seem like a way to escape, know that these are only thoughts, not truths. They are temporary. Yet, they are serious and can become consuming. Knowing these are lies and having resources, plans for coping, and a suicide crisis line handy is your best line of defense. Suicide leaves behind deep pain and destruction. The lives of loved ones and friends are changed forever, and the struggle to survive is difficult. If you love someone who is suicidal, don’t leave. Call for help. Be patient. Reassure him or her that your love is unconditional, that he or she can survive this, that things will get better. Repeat some of the information on this list to provide light in a dark place or sit quietly and listen to share your strength. Remind your loved one these feelings will pass. Also actively take care of your own mental health. Be in this together with those you love. Educate yourself. Ask doctors or counselors how you can help, even if it is just by sending them a letter that could shed light on the situation. Be courageous. Seek support, and involve yourself in appropriate groups like Al-Anon or Narc-Anon. Encourage your loved one by offering to take a walk outside with him or take on some of her chores. The future is unwritten. Whatever the problems are, they are not insurmountable though they certainly may feel that way. The post What I Wish I Had Said about Mental Health and Suicide first appeared on World of Psychology. View the full article
  6. Just like physical health, it is important to check one’s mental health amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic. When countries announced lockdown orders, many people were confined to their homes, away from family and friends. View the full article
  7. In dealing with COVID on a daily basis and continually bemoaning its effects on us as individuals and a society, we wistfully anticipate a return to “normal,” though arguably a normal that will be noticeably different than our past. What we miss is that it may be worth considering the potential positive impact of COVID. One of the largest impacts may be felt in the mental health field. We know that COVID has increased the incidence and intensity of anxiety and depression.1 Clearly that burdens the current mental health care system. However, it also means that many more people are becoming aware of the realities of mental health issues. While we know that 1 in 6 people experience a mental health condition in their lifetime, we now have far more people experiencing an acute episode exacerbated by the pandemic, and many more family members and friends also impacted by loved ones, finding themselves also learning how to provide support. This is working to heighten the awareness of mental health issues and may help to diminish stigmatization and accelerate a change in societal attitudes. Moreover, COVID has had an impact on the delivery of psychological services: some therapists are offering tele-sessions. Though such sessions diminish some aspects of a complete sensory person-to-person office visit, they do have advantages, particularly seen with younger clients. While many find the office to be a stressful, formal environment, being at home may allow the client to be in a more familiar, comfortable space making it easier for them to open up. In addition, some therapists are reporting that seeing clients in a sliver of their home space may also give them glimpses into their world, through the setting and items displayed as meaningful to them. This can be particularly helpful for working with a more reserved or reticent individual. COVID has challenged our normal means of socialization and maintaining interpersonal relationships. While this has increased the instances of domestic violence and stoked toxic relations, it has also been an opportunity for families to strengthen their bonds and rekindle their connections as they have been required to spend more time together. There are numerous anecdotes of parents and older children conversing more and thereby gaining a better understanding of each other as well as learning to enjoy each other’s company. Parents are learning about social influencers and TikTok and how teenage angst, while still based on the same anxieties, has transformed since their time. Teens are learning that their parents actually can may understand more than they previously assumed, even though their experiences are different, and they may also find humor and insight into their own challenges from their parents’ experiences. The slowdown that COVID has demanded has allowed many people to discover pleasures at home they were not aware of or had forgotten, from cooking and sharing a meal, to movie night in, to gardening and looking at a starry night while listening to the howl of neighbors at 8 p.m. This experience has compelled us to rediscover and reimagine community. Connections have definitely been redefined with technology playing a far larger role. We are quick to observe the deficiencies of virtual communication, but there are also advantages. Older adults have lagged behind this generation in technological savviness, but not only that, reticently testing and dipping into their primary modes of communication. Now, we are faced with learning to communicate by their primary modes, which result in increasing the technological competency of a greater part of society. This has a number of positive ramifications. First, virtual visits allow more people to speak to one another across vast geographical distances, and not only to speak but to see one each other. Grandparents and grandchildren living states apart can visit, letters to pen pals from different countries can be replaced by real time synchronous visits. Virtual connections may actually help older people, shut-ins, and those with chronic conditions to avoid feeling lonely and isolated. We have the possibility to connect more with those we love and those we know little about to better appreciate the lives of others who are different than our own. We also know that COVID has forced dramatic changes to learning. First, it is important to distinguish between online and remote learning. Online learning, to professionals, means asynchronous lessons completed without real time interaction. It allows for widespread dissemination and is less appealing to students as it is less interactive, more passive form of learning. Remote learning engages teachers and students in real time. All students do not have access to the technology needs for successful remote or online learning; however, in the twenty-first century, that access is becoming more fundamental to student success since technological skill is also significant in employability. Given that we will need to address that need, consider how learning is being innovated. In remote teaching (as well as business), teachers and presenters can share far more material of their own design and from around the world through the enormous “library” of the web. Moreover, teachers and students become more skilled in multi-media forms of communication which also enhances their critical thinking skills. Crisis often propels innovation, and at this time that is particularly true on the technological front. We face security concerns and a diminishing of in-person interactions, but there is also much to be gained from the expansion of our abilities to connect to others throughout the world. It can be refreshing to take a moment to consider the potential fruits that can emerge from the current storm. Reference: Mental Health America. (2020, August 11). More Than A Quarter Million People Screened Positive For Depression, Anxiety Since Start Of The Pandemic. The post Are There Potentially Positive Outcomes from COVID-19? first appeared on World of Psychology. View the full article
  8. Each day, from every corner of the world, people left in the devastating aftermath of suicide call out to other survivors of such loss wherever they gather. It is helpful to connect with people who have experienced similar tragedies and are trying to make sense of what happened to their lives. Another, more painful reason they seek comfort from strangers is this: in the case of suicide, those who knew them best often withdraw or are unable to help because of misunderstanding and fear. Most do survive and go on to rebuild, but some experience multiple suicides and a few follow loved ones by ending their own lives. As a survivor myself, I listen to their voices. I hear the pain they feel. I share it. And I try to pass on the positive things I’ve learned on my own grief journey. Healing is possible. It won’t always feel as heavy as it does now. Love outlasts pain. I’m an old-timer in the suicide loss survivor world. But I know some level of hurt will always be there, even as they find ways to honor lost loved ones and stitch their own lives back together. Understanding, acceptance, processing this grief … all are bits of a puzzle never to be completely worked, a mystery that changes lives forever. Though these words were in print, I heard the despair as one parent asked, “Why are there so many 19-year-old sons dying by suicide?” By now, it is common knowledge that the epidemic is growing and has been for quite a while. The current pandemic and its effects on jobs and the economy have added to the toll worldwide. For young children, teens, and adults of every age, there are no barriers to suicide, no 100-percent prevention methods. Love cannot stop a person from taking his or her life. Even constant vigilance can’t prevent such tragedies. For all the work done in the prevention area — which is so very important — no economic class or race is immune to suicide. Little is known about survivors left behind, though that is beginning to change as survivors themselves speak out. Suicide is now a public health problem as well as a mental health problem. What do we need to do to break this cycle? Suicide isolates. It generates fear. A millennia of myths and disinformation have shrouded everything about suicide in a cloak of secrecy. So, the first and most important thing we can do is tear that cloak away and find out what is true and what is false. The second most important thing to do is to share the truths we find with others, especially younger generations whose life experience and knowledge base may not be as developed on the issue. Research and education can only go so far in changing how suicide is viewed. And the challenge is great as can be proven by sharp division over something as simple as the infection-prevention method of wearing masks to help stop the spread of COVID-19. If people can be so divided by today’s spread of myths and disinformation related to the pandemic, what hope is there for increased understanding of suicide and its aftereffects? Hope comes in many forms. Here are a few. Don’t turn away. Find out what might help survivors after a suicide and implement that. Community education programs guided by mental health centers or local mental health professionals need to set up in every area, large and small. The resources already present need to receive support and funding to help get their materials and opportunities out to communities. Spread the truth. Materials about suicide prevention and suicide loss aftercare are available and should be explained to every outlet that deals with possible suicide victims. Fire departments, law enforcement, EMS units, hospitals, local counselors and mental/behavioral health centers, doctors, civic organizations, food banks and other relief organizations. Educate your local news outlets as well. Well-written news stories do not sensationalize suicide, but they can offer hope and resources that actually prevent suicide contagion and clusters. Do what you can. When a suicide occurs in your community, do something. Coordinate with churches or relief groups to send a representative to the family. Bring a “care kit” containing information about local and online support, a fact sheet about suicide, a book about surviving this kind of loss, and other items that might provide care in the first days and weeks post loss. Even a case of bottled water and encouragement to stay hydrated can help. Invite speakers. Ask people with related experience to present material and answer questions in schools, churches, places of employment and other locations. From college campuses to fall festivals, reaching people is important. Saving lives begins and ends with you. View the full article
  9. Phobiasupportforum

    What to Do with Intrusive Thoughts?

    If you had a devastating illness and were given one year to live, what would you do? No question there would be grief and plenty of important decisions to make. If it didn’t debilitate you completely, what would you do with your time? Where would you focus your attention and energy? Would you be willing to spend more time with your loved ones despite the pain that shows up? Would you be doing activities that you’ve enjoyed in life or would you stay home lamenting what life would’ve been if you didn’t have this affliction? As a mortal being we are guaranteed physical, mental and emotional pain. The prospect of getting away from pain is a fantasy, and we all know it. Yet, when we are in the middle of adversity, we can easily forget. Our nature is to seek comfort, and the human mind is adept at providing infinite solutions to dissuade the pain. This can happen when you struggle with intrusive thoughts. Your tendency may be to control them. You may try to ignore them. Sometimes you may try to replace, fight or push the thoughts away. After incessantly trying, you may resign yourself to being a victim to what your thoughts say and succumb to compulsions to alleviate your emotional and mental pain. You may have at some point even wished or prayed to trade your OCD for a physical debilitating illness. No question OCD is torturing, and it can get in the way of living the kind of life you want. Just like you would want to spend your precious time doing what matters with those you care most about, if you had a fatal disease, would you consider a similar stance with the pain that OCD brings into your life? Your OCD mind may advise you to wait for those internal private events (i.e., thoughts, emotions, and sensations) to abate so you can enjoy life. The advice would make sense if you were dealing with external situations, “Wait until you’ve gotten a job to purchase a car!” “Wait till you’ve earned enough money to put a down payment on a new house!” The truth is that you cannot treat internal private experiences as if they were external ones. “But why can’t that invasive thought just vanish?” you may ask. If you aren’t willing to have it, you will. In order to not think about it you have to think about it, don’t you?* Will you acknowledge the thoughts and carry on with life instead of trying to control them? This is not easy of course, but you can start with the following practice exercise. The Sticky Note On a 3 x 3 sticky note, write down three of the intrusive thoughts you wish you didn’t have. This may be difficult. However, the alternative is to have them front and center and let them get in the way of your life because you keep pushing them away. After writing your thoughts, read them and consider how long they have been showing up in your mind? How old are these stories? Are they not old news? Sometimes new thoughts will show up, and soon enough they’ll become old and the cycle will continue. Would you be willing to place the sticky note containing your intrusive thoughts in one of your pants or shirt pockets, purse, backpack or wallet? Would you be willing to carry the note with you everywhere you go? Then, when the intrusive thought shows up, can you acknowledge it, and remember how long this thought has been reoccurring? “Yes, this is the same old story.” Then decide to “own” the thought each time it pops up and genuinely thank your mind. “Yeah, I’ve got that thought in my pocket. Thanks Mind!” Pull out the note and read it, then place it back. Own your thoughts! Carry them in your pocket. Don’t wait until they are gone. Start focusing on what and who matters most despite the emotional pain. Your best life is waiting for you! Source *Steven C. Hayes, Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life, Oakland, CA: New Harbinger, 2005. View the full article
  10. BehaVR, a leading innovator of virtual reality digital wellness and digital therapeutics experiences, today announced that it has begun a new partnership aimed at leveraging virtual reality experiences to address critical unmet needs in social anxiety disorder, an underreported and undertreated mental health condition. View the full article
  11. Phobiasupportforum

    When the World Is Breaking Your Heart

    The other week, my husband and I were driving home after visiting a beloved family member who is struggling with the excruciating pain and to-the-bone weariness of cancer. As our car lugged down the highway, I thought about the ongoing cruelty of our world: the ravages of disease and war, the current pandemic, the never-ending inhumanity, inequality, and brutality, as well as the general disregard to our earth and the innocent creatures who are clinging to survive on it. (And, yes, I do realize that I’m just as guilty as the masses in spewing out pollution by the simple fact that I drive a car). I held back tears, and then took a deep breath as I told myself I was spiraling (which I’m sure you can tell from the above train of thought, I’m apt to do when facing a personal crisis). And then it happened. A horribly common occurrence (according to a 2010 article in Psychology Today, it takes place more than one million times a day on roads in the United States alone). An innocent animal was plowed down without a thought. My husband had managed to swerve our car around the poor bird with a willowy neck (who might have been a Pintailed Duck) as the fledging froze between lanes in utter confusion and wide-eyed fear at the mayhem of 65-mile-per-hour metal beasts bearing down on him. Then… in the review mirror, my husband saw that the driver behind us crushed him without pause — and what looked like intention. I lost it. I utterly lost it. All the sadness of our world seemed to lodge inside my chest. I sobbed so hard that I could hardly talk afterward. If there’s such thing as a mini nervous breakdown, I think I had one. I hit such an emotional low, that I figured if I got COVID-19 — which I’ve been doing everything in my power not to get — it wouldn’t be so bad if one more human was knocked off the face of the planet. Yet, slowly but surely, I was able to collect myself, was able to hope for hope for humanity—no matter how faint, no matter how far-off it may be. I realize that I’m not alone with both my personal and collective despair — and I know, of course, how very lucky I am compared to a great number of people. I also bet that most everyone feels a sense of loss and disheartenment right now, especially those people who have lost loved ones (whether it be due to the virus, other health or mental conditions, or to the horrific plague of prejudice). So, how do we carry forth in a world that is breaking our hearts? One of the first steps to take is to simply acknowledge that it’s not all up to you. A single person can’t fix all the ills on the earth (unless you’re some kind of saint with super powers I haven’t heard of yet). But… we can all take action, whether that means using our voices (and/or pens) to speak out for justice, volunteering for various causes, supporting clean energy, or simply being there for friends and family. Every day, no matter how much pain we may be in, we can still do at least one small thing to help. There’s power in not just doing this — but in simply knowing it. It’s also important to acknowledge our feelings. Way too often, we try to push down our emotions, telling ourselves that we shouldn’t feel sad, depressed, anxious, etc. because so many other people have it worse. And while it’s important to recognize all the things we have to be grateful for, shoving down our feelings doesn’t help anyone and may very likely make those of us who bottle them up even more sad, depressed, or anxious in the long run. So, allow yourself to feel your feelings, share them with a trusted friend or family member, and realize, too, that feelings don’t have to be permanent fixtures in our emotional landscapes. We can deal with despair, and later can also celebrate joy—as well as all the other jumble of emotions in between. Last but not least, try to tap into whatever makes you feel as if there’s something bigger than yourself. Something that provides an inner sense of calm, strength and awe, whether it be God, a connectedness to nature, the marvels of science, or simply hope. We can all use a little hope. View the full article
  12. Imagine a young girl with a peanut allergy, so stricken by fear of anaphylaxis that she no longer takes part in everyday activities many children take for granted. View the full article
  13. As life continues to be disrupted by the coronavirus outbreak, lots of people are feeling out of sorts and would love to find some straightforward, free, and accessible way of remedying that. Even people who have been thriving wouldn’t mind an easy way of maintaining their good spirits. Professor Shane O’Mara, a brain researcher at Trinity College Dublin, may have an answer. He thinks that “physicians the world over [should] write prescriptions for walking as a core treatment for improving our individual and aggregate health and well-being.” Walking, Professor O’Mara believes, “enhances every aspect of our social, psychological and neural functioning.” I’m skeptical of such hyperbole, even as a lifelong lover of walking. Reading the case he makes in his new book, “In Praise of Walking: A New Scientific Exploration,” did not persuade me to sign on to such a sweeping celebration of my favorite form of exercise. But he did provide some compelling arguments, backed up by solid research. Here are a few of them. Feeling Better, Mentally and Physically Have you heard that you should walk 150 minutes per week? Credit an Irish study of more than 8,000 adults who were 50 or older. The participants who walked at least that much described their physical health and their quality of life as better. They were less likely to feel lonely or to experience symptoms of clinical depression, and more likely to be socially active, both formally and informally, than the participants who did not walk that much. The study was cross-sectional, though, so we cannot know for sure whether walking caused all those positive experiences or whether the correlations could be explained some other way. Ducking Depression Not depressed and want to stay that way? There is some evidence that leisurely walking can help with that. In an ambitious study, nearly 40,000 adults, who were mentally and physically healthy at the outset, were followed for 11 years. Those who exercised were less likely to become depressed. Especially encouraging were the findings that the exercise did not have to be extensive. Even just an hour a week was beneficial, and it did not have to be intense — no need to be a power walker. Thinking Creatively Want to think more creatively? Walking could help. Research participants who had spent some time walking did better on several different tests of creativity than those who stayed seated. They were more imaginative while they were walking and when they sat down afterwards. Just being in motion was not what mattered most — participants who were pushed in wheelchairs were not as creative as those who walked. Taking a walk outside inspired the most creative thinking, but even walking a treadmill got some creative juices flowing. What are you doing right when you are walking? Probably letting your mind wander. Research shows that the free flow of ideas in your own mind is good for creative problem-solving. Experiencing Solidarity Walking with other people, Professor O’Mara contends, “can be central to our sense of connection to other people.” He explains that “on foot we are capable of interacting with each other at a human level: we quite literally have more common ground, we can synchronize more easily, and we can have shared experiences.” “In Praise of Walking” was written before the Black Lives Matter marches filled streets around the world in the spring of 2020 but is relevant to it. O’Mara points to research showing that walking together for a common purpose, as part of a crowd, can result in a psychological high. Along the way to potentially effecting real social change, the protestors may also be enhancing their own personal and collective well-being. Even walking alone, Professor O’Mara believes, can in some instances feel like an act of solidarity. One example is the solitary pilgrim who “is walking for, and with, an imagined community of the mind.” Another is the flaneur “who finds purpose in the social fabric of the city.” Is Walking Really for Everyone? Professor O’Mara is not shy about letting his readers know how far he walks and how often, and how challenging some of his walks can be. He suggests we download apps to keep track of our steps. I think those disclosures and recommendations were intended to be inspiring, but I found them dispiriting. I’ve loved walking my whole life, but I’m getting older now and arthritis has turned me into more of a hobbler than a rhythmic walker. The number of steps I take every day is headed just one way — down, down, down. I also worry about the people who cannot walk at all, either because of physical or medical limitations, or because they just don’t have the time. Even people who are not currently in those categories could end up in them. How will they feel when they read about how awesome it is to walk long distances each and every day, and that the benefits of being on the move are better if you are not in a wheelchair? And then there are the people who really, truly, just do not enjoy walking. There is no shortage of suggestions in the psychology journals and in places such as this Psych Central site for other ways of leading a mentally healthy and happy life, so they, too, have the potential to do just fine. View the full article
  14. Phobiasupportforum

    COVID-19 and Responsibility OCD

    A few months ago, our world turned upside down. Suddenly we faced “a new normal” — we started fearing everyday germs that we’ve never worried about before. Suddenly we were all washing our hands all day long, we were fearful of touching subway poles, and we were avoiding touching the bottoms of our shoes when coming in from outside. And perhaps most distressing of all, we were left with the constant lingering thoughts of “have I done enough to protect myself and my loved ones?” For a segment of society, though, was this really the new normal? For people like me who suffer from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, suddenly it felt like the whole world was experiencing what I had already known as my normal. Of course, I wasn’t used to staying indoors and working from home, but in terms of the compulsive handwashing, the lingering fears of contamination, and the constant worry of whether I had been careful enough were already part of my everyday life. This novel coronavirus brought a reality that most had never experienced. For some of us, though, there was an aspect of normalcy that others experienced as novel. As I discussed with my therapist, it felt like the world was finally experiencing a day-in-the-life of an OCD sufferer. As I think about the hardest parts of this for me, though, I believe that it is the notion that so much depends on each individual’s willingness to stop the spread of the virus. We were told on a daily basis that our individual actions could be the difference between spreading or containing this deadly virus. We listened to doctors and politicians tell us that wearing masks, washing our hands, and not going outside when sick could be the difference between life and death — not just for me, but for you. I’ve been spending time thinking about the responsibility aspect of COVID-19. And I’ve realized that for most, this message of being responsible for one another’s safety is highly effective. I understand the importance of educating the public on what it means to be a good neighbor and what it means to make decisions that are selfless, even when inconvenient. Indeed, the very notion of wearing a mask is to protect others, not to protect yourself. And I think for 99% of the population, this message is not only effective, but crucial. For the percentage of the population with OCD, though, this message is desperately difficult to absorb. One of the lesser known sides of OCD is the fear of accidentally being the cause of harm to others. What we often see as germaphobia for people with OCD is actually the fear that being careless with germs is scary not because it’s harmful to me, but because it will be harmful to my loved ones. When we see people with OCD checking that they haven’t left the stove on, they aren’t checking just because they worry about their own safety but because they fear that their carelessness will cause a building to burn and injure their family members, apartment neighbors, or others. The idea of being responsible for someone else’s safety is painfully difficult to manage because the mind can run frantic with doubt of whether one has been careful enough and whether they have done everything perfectly in order to protect those whom they love. And so, herein lies the painfully difficult part of COVID-19 for people with OCD. Our usual feelings of hyper-responsibility are now heightened with warnings from public leaders that, indeed, our actions can be the difference between life and death. That, indeed, my decision to wash my hands for at least 20 seconds can be the difference between whether COVID-19 does or doesn’t spread. People with OCD, though, often have a difficult time ever feeling comfortable that they have done enough. So, while you absorb the message from leaders and wear a mask for others, we wear our mask and still worry that maybe the mask isn’t secure enough to keep others safe. While you wash your hands once before serving food to your kids, we wash our hands more often and longer because we can’t shake the feeling that we aren’t being careful enough. For you, you feel proud of yourself for taking care of your fellow Americans. For us, we feel scared that our care isn’t careful enough. And for you, when COVID-19 is over, you’ll return to your old normal, while we’ll remain in the zone of this new normal that most are excited to hopefully never experience again. View the full article
  15. Phobiasupportforum

    Podcast: Joking About Suicide: Is It Ever Okay?

    Is it ever OK to joke about mental illness or suicide? In today’s Not Crazy podcast, Gabe and Lisa welcome Frank King, a comedian who’s turned his struggles with major depression and suicidal thinking into comedic material. What do you think? Is joking about suicide too heavy? Or is humor a good coping mechanism? Join us for an in-depth discussion on gallows humor. (Transcript Available Below) Subscribe to Our Show! And Please Remember to Rate & Review Us! Guest Information for ‘Frank King — Joking and Suicide’ Podcast Episode Frank King, Suicide Prevention speaker and Trainer was a writer for The Tonight Show for 20 years. Depression and suicide run in his family. He’s thought about killing himself more times than he can count. He’s fought a lifetime battle with Major Depressive Disorder and Chronic Suicidality, turning that long dark journey of the soul into five TEDx Talks and sharing his lifesaving insights on Mental Health Awareness with associations, corporations, and colleges. A Motivational Public Speaker who uses his life lessons to start the conversation giving people permission to give voice to their feelings and experiences surrounding depression and suicide. And doing it by coming out, as it were, and standing in his truth, and doing it with humor. He believes that where there is humor there is hope, where there is laughter there is life, nobody dies laughing. The right person, at the right time, with the right information, can save a life. About The Not Crazy Podcast Hosts Gabe Howard is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations, available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from Gabe Howard. To learn more, please visit his website, gabehoward.com. Lisa is the producer of the Psych Central podcast, Not Crazy. She is the recipient of The National Alliance on Mental Illness’s “Above and Beyond” award, has worked extensively with the Ohio Peer Supporter Certification program, and is a workplace suicide prevention trainer. Lisa has battled depression her entire life and has worked alongside Gabe in mental health advocacy for over a decade. She lives in Columbus, Ohio, with her husband; enjoys international travel; and orders 12 pairs of shoes online, picks the best one, and sends the other 11 back. Computer Generated Transcript for “Frank King- Joking and Suicide” Episode Editor’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you. Lisa: You’re listening to Not Crazy, a psych central podcast hosted by my ex-husband, who has bipolar disorder. Together, we created the mental health podcast for people who hate mental health podcasts. Gabe: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Not Crazy Podcast. My name is Gabe Howard and with me, as always, is Lisa. Lisa, do you have a new beginning this week? Lisa: Oh, you totally ruined my thing. I was gonna do hi, I’m Lisa, but like in a cute voice. Gabe: You think using like a different inflection, but the exact same words is a new introduction for you? Lisa: Yes, I’m going to do different inflections. Gabe: That’s terrible. Lisa: I’ve been thinking about it for a full seven days. Gabe: It’s terrible. You know, I am very happy that you’re here and I’m very happy that the show is about comedy. We are going to talk about is comedy and being funny surrounding mental health issues OK? Well, we kind of think it is. But Lisa, today we have a guest. Lisa: Yes. Our guest, Frank King, lives with major depression and suffers from suicidal ideation, and he describes himself as a warrior in his lifelong battle with mental illness. And before we get started, we are going to talk about suicide. And Frank is a comedian. So it’s going to come up pretty quick. So be prepared for that. Gabe: And there’s your trigger warning, folks, and after we’re done talking to Frank. Lisa and I will be back to tell you our thoughts, you know, behind his back. Lisa: And recorded, so not really behind his back. He could still listen to it. Gabe: I’m glad you told me that, because Lisa: You forgot? Gabe: Yeah, yeah, that just yeah. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: I often forget that people are listening Lisa: Really? Gabe: No. No, never. Gabe: And we’re just going to attack him a whole bunch. We’re gonna be like, that’s offensive. That’s awful. That’s terrible. People feel this way. And would you joke about murder? The answer, of course, is that people do joke about murder. People joke about all kinds of things. But I feel like we should let Frank defend himself. Frank, welcome to the show. Frank: Thanks, Gabe. Thanks for the warm welcome. Lisa: Oh, thank you for being here. Gabe: Are you glad you said yes? Frank: Huh, do you want me to be honest or kind? Lisa: Too soon to say. Frank: No, I’m delighted to be here. Glad we could find a time to do this, although I haven’t got another booking till May 2021, so I got plenty of time. Gabe: COVID has slowed us all down. Frank, you’re a mental health comedian. That’s literally how you describe yourself. Frank King, the mental health comedian. Why? Can you tell us about that? Frank: Yeah, I told my first joke in fourth grade and the kids laughed and I told my mom I’m gonna be a comedian. She said, because education is a big deal in our family. Well, son, you are gonna go to college and get a degree. Now, after college, you can be, I don’t know a goat herder if you choose. But you, my son, are going to be a goat herder with a degree. So I went to school in Chapel Hill. I got two degrees. One in political science, one in industrial relations. Lisa: Oh, I didn’t know that was the thing. Frank: I didn’t either. Gabe: Can you get a job in that or did you have to fall back on comedy? Frank: No. UNC Chapel Hill has a fabulous placements center. I interviewed literally 77 times. No second interviews, no job offers. So they’re looking at me thinking this guy’s a clown. And they were correct. So most people give up a good job to do comedy. But I was functionally unemployable. So my girlfriend, high school girlfriend and college, her father worked for an insurance company and he wrangled me a job as a marketing rep of an insurance company in Raleigh. And then we moved to San Diego. I should have never married my first wife. I knew going down the aisle it was not going to work. I just didn’t have the testicular fortitude to back out. We had nothing in common, essentially. And you know what they say, opposites attract. She was pregnant. I wasn’t. So, we got married and, in La Jolla, California, which is a suburb of San Diego, although La Jolla would tell you that San Diego is actually a suburb of La Jolla, the Comedy Store had a branch there, the world famous Comedy Store on Sunset. Gabe: Yeah. Very cool. Frank: And so I Lisa: Yeah, I watched it when I was a kid. Frank: And so I did what I tell comedians or want to be comedians to do. Go and sit through open mic night twice. See how bad everybody is, 75% of them. And that will give you the courage. I went down, sat through two nights of it and sure enough, 75, 80 percent were horrible. And I’m thinking I’m that funny just walking around. And so the third night I went, I got up. I did my five minutes. It was all about moving from North Carolina to California because back then that was quite a bit of culture shock. The joke I remember is I’d never seen guacamole. I’ve never actually seen an avocado growing up in North Carolina. So I pick up a chip and I’m headed for the bowl and I stop. I’m hovering over the bowl, staring at the guacamole. You know what guacamole looks like. The hostess comes running over. Frank, I’ll bet you don’t know what that is. You’re not from California. That is what we call guacamole. And it’s good. And I said, yes, I bet it was good the first time somebody ate it. And in my head that night, it’s only happened a couple of times in my life. I had the thought unbidden. I’m home on stage Lisa: Aww. Frank: There. And then my second thought was I would do this for a living. I have no idea how because I had no idea how difficult it is to make a living doing standup comedy. Had I known, I probably would not have tried. Gabe: Frank, I love that story and that, of course, answers the second part, how you became a comedian, but why mental health? Why a mental health comedian? Frank: Well, we’ll get there. Gabe: Get there faster, Frank. Lisa: Don’t, don’t. Gabe: That’s what I’m telling you. Frank: I see, okay. Lisa: Don’t, Gabe. It’s just like with you, if you try to make him go faster, he’ll go slower. Just think Zen. Frank: Yeah, Lisa: Be chill. Frank: Yeah. Lisa: See all these years, that’s why I let you talk, because otherwise it takes longer. Gabe: That’s so sweet. Frank: I did amateur night for about a year, and then I won a contest in San Diego. Said to my girlfriend, now my wife of 32 years. Lisa: Oh. Frank: Look, I’m going on the road to do standup comedy. I had 10 weeks booked, which I thought was forever. You want to come along? And she said inexplicably, yes. So we put everything into storage that we couldn’t fit into my tiny little Dodge Colt. Gabe: Wow. Frank: No air conditioning. And we hit the road for 2,629 nights in a row. Nonstop, beer bar, pool hall, honky tonk, comedy club. And she just came along for the ride. We had no home, no domicile. No, we were, you know. Gabe: Now, generally speaking, when people are homeless, I think maybe they’re not so good at what they’re doing. But? Lisa: It’s apparently a different type of industry. Frank: And it was a great time of our lives. I mean, back then they put you up in a comedy condo, three bedrooms. So I worked with and spent time, weeks at a time in condos with Dennis Miller and Jeff Foxworthy and Ron White, Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie O’Donnell and Dana Carvey and Adam Sandler. Back when they were just comics. So we rode that wave for about seven years. And then I got a job in radio in Raleigh, North Carolina, my old hometown, and I took a number one morning show. I drove it to number six in 18 months. A friend of mine said you didn’t just drive it into the ground. You drove it into Middle Earth. So I did. Lisa: Well, but in absolute value, that’s a, that’s a big up. Gabe: I mean, six is a bigger number than one, congratulations. Lisa: There you go. Yeah. Frank: So then my boss at the time, we’re still friends, said to me, well, you go back on the road doing stand up. Well, standup was going away. More clubs are closing than opening. So I’ve always been very clean. Which cost me in the one nighter beer bar situations. But join the National Speaker Association, got to the rubber chicken circuit and rode that and made good money just doing HR friendly corporate clean comedy until 2007 and a half basically. And then the market, you know, the speaking market dropped out 80% practically overnight. And my wife and I lost everything we worked for for twenty five years in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. And that’s when I found out what the barrel of my gun tastes like. Spoiler alert. I didn’t pull the trigger. I tell that story and a friend of mine came up afterwards, who never heard me say that before. And he goes, Hey, man, how come you didn’t pull the trigger? I go, Hey, man, could you try to sound a little less disappointed? So. And if you want to know why I didn’t pull the trigger, it’s in my first TED talk. Gabe: I mean, sincerely, we. This is the crux of the show, right? That’s like really heavy. Like when you said it, I was like, oh, my God, what can I do to save, Frank? You already told me that it was. Lisa: Yeah, I was also thinking whoa whoa, did not see that coming. All right. Gabe: Right. But you said it funny. I mean, there’s no other way to put it. That was a joke about something really, really serious. And I imagine that there’s a shock value there. There’s a like that was unexpected. Frank: Yeah, and it is there on purpose. Gabe: Do you get shit for that? I mean, I can already read the letters. I was trying to listen to your podcast. We were all having a good time. And then Frank made a joke about suicide that I wasn’t expecting. How dare you? And on one hand, I want to agree with them, like, oh, like that would be unexpected. But on the other hand, I appreciate humor. I embrace humor. It is healthy. How do you answer the people that tell you this? Lisa: Well, first, I want to hear how he decided to talk about this, because this friend comes up to him and he tells the story. Is that because that friend thought it was hilarious and you were like, oh, this is definitely where the money is? I’m gonna go this direction. I mean, how did that happen? Frank: Well, I had a mental health act at that point when he actually said that. So I just, as many comics do, Lisa: Ok. Frank: Added to that because everybody laughed. The actual original line was bankruptcy, lost everything. And I had an itch on the roof of my mouth I could only scratch with the front side on my nickel plated .38, which people found a little graphic. So I, Gabe: Yeah. Lisa: Well. Frank: I came up with the what the barrel of my gun tastes like. It’s faster. And what I do is I do it on purpose for two reasons. One, anybody in the audience who has a mental illness who hears me say, I can tell you what the barrel of my gun tastes like, you can see them lean forward because all of a sudden, they realize that I get it. And it shocks the neuro typical people, which is what I’m after, into paying better attention, because that’s why I’m there, is to let the mentally ill people know that they’re not alone and help the neurotypical people decode how someone can be so depressed that they would take their own life. And so, but then again, you notice I talk about taste of the barrel of my gun and then I go, spoiler alert, didn’t pull the trigger. So you get the shock and then you get the joke, although it only gets a nervous laugh, that line, you know. Huh. And then the big payoff is friend of mine came up. Why didn’t you pull the trigger? Could you. Yeah. So it is constructed that way on purpose. The shock value. And then the first small laugh. Should we be laughing at the fact you put a gun in his mouth? And then the big laugh with the guy who came up afterwards and said, you know, and I said try to sound a little less disappointed. Frank: So but yeah, it’s, um, except for the fact that I was given some grief about the original line, about the itch on the roof of my mouth. Nobody’s ever complained about the. I don’t know whether they I’ve shocked him into apoplexy. They can’t. I’d like to say something, but I can’t. And there’s a comedy principle there in that if you give them something very serious like the gun in the mouth and you follow it with something amusing, then they’re much more ready and able to handle the next piece of serious information that you give them, regardless of what it is. So there’s a rhythm to and then the reason, you know, everything is where it is in that bit and in the in my speech. What happened was I would do standup comedy and I’d always wanted to make a living and a difference because when I went to work in insurance, I saw all the old school motivational guys, Zig Ziglar and like that. I thought, man, I could do that if I just had something to teach somebody. Well, when I came so close, and it runs in my family. My grandmother died by suicide. Frank: My mother found her. My great aunt died by suicide. My mother and I found her. I was four years old, I screamed for days. I thought, I think I can maybe talk about it. And then I bought a book by a woman named Judy Carter called The Message of You: Turning Your Life into a Money Making Speaking Career. And I went into it thinking, I’ve got nothing. And Judy walks you through finding your heart story and what you should be talking about. And about halfway through, I thought I do have something to talk about. So I use Judy’s book to design my first TED talk. I used a book called Talk Like TED to refine it. And then I delivered it and I came out to the world at 52 as somebody who’s depressed and suicidal. My wife didn’t know my family, my friends, no one knew. Now to Gabe’s point, the only thing I’ve ever gotten grief for about that TEDx talk was that I didn’t know that the preferred language around suicide was die by suicide, completed a suicide, in that I said committed suicide. And it actually cost me a gig. They saw that, and I said, well, look at the next three. Gabe: Yeah. Frank: But they didn’t want to hire me because I used the term committed suicide. Gabe: We talk about this a lot. Everywhere I go. I used to be the host of a podcast called A Bipolar, a Schizophrenic, and a Podcast and all of our mail. OK. I should back off that a little. Not all of our mail but, but probably 75% of our mail, was your language is offensive. It should be called a person living with bipolar, a person living with schizophrenia and a portable digital file that you can listen to at your leisure. And I thought that’s just so cumbersome. But what really struck me about this language debate is, for the record, I agree that we should say completed suicide or attempted suicide. I don’t like the term commit because it makes it sound. I agree with that change. But so what? You probably agree with the thought behind it as well. And you just didn’t know at the time. We’re not educating people if we start, you know, firing people every time they make a mistake. I mean, just heaven forbid. Frank: Well, here’s the deal. I said there is no bigger commitment than blowing your brains out. Two, there’s an old joke about breakfast, bacon and eggs. The chicken is involved. The pig was committed. Still didn’t get the gig. But I felt better. Gabe: I understand. Look, I’m not saying that there’s not an iota of truth in the way we talk to each other and the way that we speak to one another and the words that we choose to use. It’s one of the reasons that you’re probably a comedian because, you know, that language can be manipulated in a way that makes people pay closer attention. Frank: Oh, yeah. Gabe: Or a way that makes people laugh or that, you know, ruffles people’s feathers. We’re all aware of this. But I still have to point out time and time again, if we put as much effort into getting people with serious mental illness help as we do in deciding how to discuss people with serious mental illness, I think the world would be a better place. I had to take a lot of shit about that, Frank. Frank: Yeah. My radio co-host, had an expression, is that the hill you want to die on? And no, that’s not the hill I want to die. That’s not where I want to spend my effort. I’ll use proper language. But I’m not you know, right before I came on with you guys, I was on a dental podcast because dentists have a high rate and several have died recently, high profile. And the gentleman I was talking to said committed suicide. And I just let it go. I wasn’t going to school him. I mean, if I saw him later, I’d say, hey, man, just a note, you know, just for your own edification and to avoid trouble in the future. And I have done that with other people. You know, people say something. I said, look, you know, when you figure somebody has mental illness, you need to avoid this or that. It is not always language so much as it is. You know, I choose joy. Gabe: Yeah. Frank: Ok, well, one of the guys who’s involved in our book is very much a positive motivational speaker sort of fellow. And he thinks, he said something about the state of mind, that positive state of mind and choosing positive thoughts is the antidote to depression. And I said, you have to be very careful about that because there are those of us who are organically predisposed. And I am the most positive person who’s suicidal you’ll probably ever meet. I have a great attitude. You know, I have chronic suicidal ideation so I could blow my brains out tomorrow. But, you know, it’s not a matter of attitude. Lisa: Positive thinking only takes you so far. Frank: Yeah, it’s like saying to a parent of a child who has a problem depression and thoughts of suicide to hire a coach. A life coach. It’s like, no. And the pushback I get the most on, Gabe, is somebody will confront me. How can you joke about mental illness and suicide? Gabe: Yeah. Frank: An overarching question, an in the macro question. How can you joke about depression and thoughts of suicide? I say, so here’s the deal. In comedy, maybe you know this, you can joke about any group to which you belong. Lisa: Right. Gabe: Exactly. Yes. Yes. I always hate it when people tell me how to talk about myself Frank: Yeah. Gabe: Or when people tell me how to react to my own trauma or my own experiences, like you can’t talk about your life that way. What I Frank: What? Gabe: I just. Listen, having mental illness. I live with bipolar disorder. And it is rough and it is tough. And society is constantly on top of me telling me what to do, how to behave, how to act. You know, this treatment is good. This treatment is bad. Anti psychiatry, pro psychiatry, med model. Just everywhere, just like everybody has an opinion about my life. And then people start having opinions of how I’m supposed to think and discuss my life. It’s bad enough you all have opinions on everything else I do. But now you’re trying to control how I think about my own experiences and explain them to others. Now, now I want to fight. Lisa: Well, they think they’re helping. Gabe: I know they think they’re helping, but they’re not. Frank: The name your previous podcast was something of a bipolar? It was a? Gabe: A bipolar schizophrenic and a podcast. Frank: Yes, I thought it was so three guys walking into a bar. Gabe: Yeah, we stole it from three guys in a pizza place Frank: Yeah. Exactly. Lisa: Well, the name of this one is Not Crazy, so if the question at the beginning of the episode is, is it OK to joke about mental illness? I think we’ve already answered it with the title. Frank: Yes. Gabe: Yeah, we get pushback on the title. People suck. Lisa: I know. Frank: So do I. I get. I just got off the podcast with the dentists, and I said, look, before I leave, let me give you my phone number, my cell phone number, and I give it to him twice, and I say put it in the show notes. And here’s the deal. The reason I do that, I do it every keynote that I do. I give my cell phone number. Lisa: Really? Frank: Yep. Lisa: Ok. Frank: I say, look, if you’re suicidal, call the suicide prevention lifeline or text HELP to 741741. If you’re just having a really bad day, call a crazy person like me. Because we’re not going to judge. We’re just going to listen. Gabe: Yeah. Frank: As a friend of mine says, co-sign on your B.S. and I’ve gotten pushback on you shouldn’t use word crazy. So, here’s the thing. I’m taking it back. Gabe: Yes. Frank: As gay people took back the term queer and made it not a pejorative. I’m taking crazy back because I own it. I’ve paid for it. It’s my word if I want to use it. And so, yeah, that gets my dander up. It’s, you know. Gabe: Here, here’s the thing about comedy that I love so much. And I agree with you and Lisa and I talk about this all the time, for some reason, we’re so hung up on words that we’re not at all hung up on context. Frank: No. Gabe: Do you know how many horrible things have happened to me with the right words being used? Mr. Howard, I’m sorry. I’m going to have to fire you from your job because you’re a person living with mental illness Lisa: But we’ve talked about why that is. Gabe: Why? Lisa: Because it’s easier. Do you know how much trouble and effort it would be to end homelessness or provide an adequate mental health safety net or suicide prevention programs? Those are hard and they’re expensive. Telling people to start talking in a different way is much, much easier and free. Gabe: And you can do it on Facebook. Lisa: Yeah, that helps, too. You don’t have to leave your house. Frank: And I get together once a month, sometimes more, on a Monday with my crazy comedy klatch, anywhere from two to six of us who are all crazy. All have a mental illness of one stripe or another. And we get together for an hour. We take off our game face and we are just ourselves and say things that would. One morning somebody comes and goes, you know, a guy jumped off a six story building downtown. I go, six stories? Not a chance in hell. You could survive six stories. Just leave you a quadriplegic. I’m going at least 10. Lisa: Good thinking. Frank: And there’s somebody at the table behind me is like, did you just? I go, it’s a math problem. You know, you just have to reach terminal velocity. Give me a break. But that’s how you know. Somebody said something about suicide. And I said, look, if you going to die by suicide, don’t jump off a bridge and land on some poor civilian’s car and ruin their lives forever. Get a bomb vest, find some jackass and wrap your arms around him and then pull the trigger. Do, you know, make the world a better place. Lisa: That’s actually super good advice. Frank: Yeah. Gabe: That is terrible advice and Not Crazy, does not does not condone murder in any way. Lisa: I just can’t believe. I have spent a lot of time thinking about suicide. I have never thought of that. Gabe: Listen, what we’re talking about is called gallows humor, it’s dark humor. Now, I am a big fan of it. In my darkest moments, the things that, honest to God, saved my life were the people that looked at me and told me jokes like we just talked about here. But not everybody likes them and not everybody understands them. Frank: No. Gabe: I mean, it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about mental illness, mental health or. You know, my family. OK, here’s what this reminds me of. My dad got in a horrible accident. I mean, he had to be life flighted like it was really serious. We got a call. We had to get in the car. We had to drive 12 hours because we live in Ohio. He lives in Tennessee. And we go there. And my dad is 70 years old and he’s listen, he’s beat to shit. And the nurse needed him to sign a consent form. And, of course, you know, my dad, he’s on painkillers. He’s scared. He’s in the hospital. Did I mention he was, you know, like, really physically messed up from the accident? And he’s giving the nurse trouble. He’s like, I don’t want to. I don’t want to. I don’t want to. And I said, you know, Dad, you need to sign that. And he goes, I don’t want to. Gabe: And I looked my dad in the eyes and I said, if you don’t sign that, I’m going to beat you up. And there was this awkward moment of silence for like a second. And my dad just starts laughing. He just starts cracking up. He’s laughing so hard that he’s like, don’t. Don’t make me laugh. It hurts. It hurts. And he grabs the clipboard and he signs it. Now, I’ve told that story, I don’t know, a thousand times and about 50% of the time people gasp like, oh, my God, this sounds like a really serious emergency. Your dad had to be life flighted. Why would you say that to him? What kind of a horrible, awful son are you? Look, I know my dad. This is how we talk to each other. It lightens the mood. My dad thought it was funny. And listen, we didn’t have a lot to laugh at, so we had to laugh at the only thing that was in the room, which was the fact that my dad got in an accident that almost killed him and had to be life flighted and his son had to drive 12 hours to see him. I think it’s the same way with mental illness. I think that’s what we need to laugh at. I think if we’re not laughing, we’re crying. Lisa: Humor is a way to deal with dark topics that are uncomfortable, it’s a way to make you feel better about things that are sucky. Gabe: But not everybody believes that. How do you counterbalance that? Because in any room, especially your rooms, Frank, they’re big rooms, there’s five hundred a thousand people in those rooms. And better than average odds are, there’s a couple of hundred people that think that you’re a jackass that’s making fun of mentally ill people and you’re doing a great disservice. Frank: Yeah, well, you know, that’s the difference between being a speaker and a comedian. As a comedian, I’m very careful. You’ve got to know your audience. Lisa: Well, that’s really the key. Knowing your audience. Frank: Yeah. Lisa: It eliminates this entire discussion. Gabe: Yeah, but you’re hired at corporate events. The audience doesn’t choose themselves. This makes it a little more difficult. Right, Frank? I mean, if you’re. Lisa: Well, no, because he doesn’t actually need to please the audience, he just needs to please the people who hired him. Gabe: Now, come on, that that’s. Lisa: Those two things will probably usually go together, but not always. Gabe: We’re not playing lawyer ball here, Lisa. Lisa: I’m just saying. Frank: Yeah, the I’ve got a friend is a funeral director, mortician, so is his dad, and they have the darkest sense of humor. I go into a motivational speech for the Selected Independent Funeral Homes. They call me up and they said. Lisa: This is a good joke. I can tell. It’s going to be a good, good setup. Gabe: Well, this isn’t a joke, it’s a story, right? Frank: True story. Gabe: It’s a true story. Lisa: It’s going to be funny in the end, though, I can tell. Gabe: Everything Frank says is funny. Frank: A month ahead of time they call me. What do you call your motivational speech for morticians? And I was kidding. I said I call it Thinking Inside the Box. And they liked it so much. I had to have my first slide is, you know, Thinking Inside the Box. The son and father are hysterical. And then his dad is on a ship. I’m doing 10 days on a 115 day world cruise. And I don’t know if you guys know this, but the longer the cruise, the older the passengers. Gabe: Really? Lisa: Well, that makes sense. They have the time. Gabe: I guess. Yeah, they don’t have jobs. Yeah, that makes sense. Frank: Yeah. One hundred fifteen days, we’re talking old people and their parents. Every night, same thing for dessert: oxygen. Yeah. Did a show in an 800 seat theater, it was packed. I call my wife, honey, there was so much white hair in that theater, it looked like a Q-tip convention. So in my act I have this story about how every industry has a favorite joke. And I tell one about the grain industry. There’s one about my favorite actually is ophthalmologists and optometrists. Their favorite joke is this is my impression of an ophthalmologist or an optometrist making love. How’s that? How about now? Better or worse? One or two? Yeah. And I said, guys like if you’ve never worn glasses, ask somebody because that’s funny. Lisa: Well, yeah, I was going to say only people who wear glasses are gonna get that. Frank: Well, then there’s a mortician joke and the mortician joke is what’s the most difficult thing about being a mortician? And it’s trying to look sad at a $35,000 funeral. So I tell the joke Lisa: That’s not a joke, though. That’s real. Frank: It’s true, but I tell the joke and I say Gabe: Well, but it is funny. Frank: It is funny, and the audience laughs. And I say is anybody here in the audience, a mortician, retired or active duty? And a guy on the balcony raise his hand. I go, what’s a mortician doing on a 115 day world cruise? He stands up, waves his arm across a crowd and goes inventory. And it kills. Gabe: Oh. Frank: And I’ve been, and it’s been killing ever since. And it may be, Gabe, because he delivers the punch line. Lisa: It’s entirely because he delivers it. Frank: Yeah, exactly. Lisa: Otherwise, it’s not funny. Otherwise, it’s just mean. Frank: Yes, comedy, there’s an art and a science. Comedians should always be shooting up, not down. Lisa: Exactly. Yes. Frank: So if I was neurotypical, I couldn’t make any of the jokes I make about depression and suicide because I’d be shooting down. Gabe: Right. You’d be making fun of people below you on that. Yeah. Lisa: Yeah, making fun of a oppressed group is not funny. It’s just piling on to the problems that are already there. Frank: It’s like, women should always win in a joke. And that’s why men shouldn’t make fun of, or minorities. It’s difficult being a white comedian. Six foot tall, brown haired white guy because I. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, you poor dear. Gabe: We’re sorry, Frank. At least God gave you a mental illness so you had something to talk about. Frank: Yeah, I’m well aware of being born a white male, heterosexual Protestant in the US gives you a huge advantage. But frankly, if you have born that way in a relatively stable family and you haven’t succeeded at something, you’re doing it wrong. Lisa: Yeah. Gabe: Yeah. Frank: Yeah, so, if you are gay or black or Mexican, you can joke about all those. Comedy is tragedy plus time or difficulty plus time. So, you know, because minorities have more difficulty. If you’re a minority, you can joke about all minorities. If you’re a white guy, not so much. So there are comedy rules and regulations that bleed over into my speaking. I try to teach my speaking coaching students this. There should not be a word in there that doesn’t serve a purpose, including moving the narrative forward. I mean, you got to be very careful how you word things, because in radio, they say it’s not what you said. It’s not what they heard. It’s what they thought they heard. And nowadays it’s all filtered, more so, I think, than in the past because of the division. You know, the right and the left and the P.C. and the preferred pronouns. And I was on campus, Gabe, at University of Montana, Billings, two nice young men drive me around to radio stations. And one of them said, you know, Frank, comics have a tough time on campus nowadays because people get offended. Do you worry about people getting offended? I said, well, if I was a comedian, I’d be worried. However, I’m here on campus to save lives. So my philosophy is. And then there’s an F and an ’em. F ’em. Lisa: Hmm. Frank: I don’t care whose toes I step on if it means I’m saving people. Gabe: Exactly. It’s always to your point about everybody being offended. If people are offended, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. And again, I want to be very, very clear. There are offensive statements Frank: Oh, yeah. Gabe: That go too far. But if people are sitting around discussing what you said and they’re passionate about what you said and they disagree passionately with what you said, they’re applying their critical thinking skills to what you said and determining if they like it or dislike it, agree with it, don’t agree with it. And I think that there’s power in that. If after I leave a whole bunch of people get together and discuss everything that I said, I think that a lot more people will be helped than if everybody’s like, well, he didn’t do anything. I mean, literally just it sucks to not be remembered. Don’t get me wrong. I want to be remembered for good things, Frank. Frank: Yeah. Gabe: But I want to be remembered. Lisa: Well, but it’s interesting what you said there, that there are some things that go too far. But isn’t that your base premise, that depending on your audience, there’s not? That there is, in fact, nothing that goes too far? Frank: Well, there’s too soon. Lisa: Ok, too soon. Frank: Yeah. Lisa: All right. Not exactly the same. Frank: But yeah, I think Gabe’s right. I think if you leave them talking and I have no problem with someone, who comes up afterwards and says to me, look, I have a problem with blank. And so we talk about it. Well, here’s my philosophy. Here’s why I said that. Here’s why I chose those words. Now tell me why you find that? What do you find offensive about that? Because I know I can learn things too. I mean it’s. Lisa: Has that happened? Can you think of any? I mean, one of these discussions has perhaps led to you changing up a joke with or rethinking something or gaining new info? Frank: Back in the day during the AIDS crisis, back in the Reagan years, a lot of comics, male, heterosexual, made jokes about AIDS because it was the gay plague. Back then, anyway. When it became affecting heterosexuals, it wasn’t quite as funny, but I told a joke in the punchline involved AIDS and a friend of mine took me aside. He goes, Look, I know you don’t have a mean bone in your body, but I don’t think you understand how devastating this epidemic is among groups and communities. And so, I think if you knew or if I can impress upon you how wrong that joke is, that you wouldn’t do it. And I dropped it immediately from my act once he explained why it was so wrong. So it has happened. It doesn’t happen a lot. And I’m very careful about, you know, getting there. Lisa: Clearly, you’ve thought it through or you would be using the joke in the first place. Frank: Yes. Yeah. So I am open to criticism and changing things. Like with committed suicide, I said, OK, that’s the preferred language. Or live with bipolar. That’s a preferred language that’s less offensive to some people, you know. What does it cost me to change it? Lisa: That’s an interesting point. Yeah, that’s a good point, what does it cost you? Frank: Yeah, Lisa: You to change it? Frank: But I’m with Gabe, I don’t think that should be our focus. Lisa: Right. Right. Frank: And, Lisa. I’m with you on this. That’s easy to do. Solving a homeless problem or much more difficult. Gabe: Right. That’s where I am. Lisa: Do you feel that some of the criticism you got is, you know, when I see people who are using incorrect terms, et cetera, that you feel like, OK, they don’t know any better, this is your chance to educate. This is your chance to inform. Do you feel that the thinking was, hey, if you’re going to broach the topic, you should already be at that level? Like, is that part of the criticism that people feel like you, of all people, should know better? Frank: Yeah, I would say so, Lisa: Would you not get that same amount of criticism if you yourself did not have a mental illness? Frank: Yeah, exactly. And I have, as Gabe does I’m sure, that deep understanding of the. I don’t know, Gabe, if you do this, but I spend a lot of time by myself in self reflection inside my own head and. Gabe: Of course I do. Constantly. Lisa: That’s mental illness. Frank: Yeah, Gabe: That’s pretty much the only place I live. Lisa: Yeah. Frank: Well, I’m driving one day and I thought to myself, I’m not going to use the term battle depression anymore because battle implies I can win. I cannot win. I can tie. Uneasy truce like North and South Korea. I can lose. Kill myself, but I cannot win. And I’ve had arguments with people, no you can be cured. No. No. For me, there is no cure. Lisa: Right. Only treatment. Frank: I live with it. I take sort of an aikido approach. Aikido is a martial art where you blend with your person coming at you rather than go up against their energy, you blend with the energy, take their balance. Because depression is a great power and energy. And so rather than bump up against it, I try to blend with it and move forward with it. You use that energy to continue to move forward. It’s difficult, but that mindset of rather than, you know, battling it. Lisa: We’ll be right back after these messages. Announcer: Interested in learning about psychology and mental health from experts in the field? Give a listen to the Psych Central Podcast, hosted by Gabe Howard. Visit PsychCentral.com/Show or subscribe to The Psych Central Podcast on your favorite podcast player. Announcer: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.com. Secure, convenient, and affordable online counseling. Our counselors are licensed, accredited professionals. Anything you share is confidential. Schedule secure video or phone sessions, plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you feel it’s needed. A month of online therapy often costs less than a single traditional face to face session. Go to BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral and experience seven days of free therapy to see if online counseling is right for you. BetterHelp.com/PsychCentral. Lisa: And we’re back talking about whether or not it is OK to joke about mental illness with comedian, Frank King. Frank, I have been wondering, after watching some of your acts, where does your comedy come from? Frank: I believe my comedy timing, imagination is simply the flip side of my major depressive disorder and chronic suicidal ideation. I taught a class called Stand Up for Mental Health. You have to have a diagnosis to get in, a diagnosis to teach it. I got to tell you, they were the best students I ever had. Okay, here’s a dark one. These are jokes. This is the way it came out of her head. Most comics got a whole page, and they have to like redact two thirds of it. She goes I went to see my psychiatrist. I go, Camille, what did the psychiatrist say? Well, he asked me if I was depressed? I said yes. He asked if I had any thoughts of suicide? Yes. He said, do you have a plan? I said, I have five plans. Five plans? She goes, Yeah. You want to hear them all or just the ones that involve you? It’s dark, but there’s not a word in that that doesn’t move the narrative forward. Here’s one. Tosh. She said, My boyfriend said he wanted to break up with me. I said, well, why did he want to do that, Tosh? She goes, because he wants to see other people. I said, What did you say? I said, I’m bipolar. Give me a minute. Just that’s the way it came out of her head. And here’s a deal, I can teach you to write standup comedy. Frank: I could teach you perform standup comedy. What I cannot teach you to do is process. So if somebody said, Frank, one pill one time, never be depressed again, never another suicidal thought. The only side effect is you’re not going to process as a comedian. Then keep the pill, I’ll live with the downside to hang onto the upside. That is where my comedy comes from. And heckler lines, people go, how did you think up? I’m on the bus. I was in Cambodia. We were on busses to go to the airport to catch a plane to come home. And the woman in front of me, an older woman on a cruise. Go figure. I was doing a podcast from my phone in the seat behind her and she goes, hang up the phone. I go, it’s not a phone call, it’s a podcast, I’m working. Hang up, eh. So I went back another row, kept my voice down. Well, it didn’t please her at all. It didn’t mollify her. So we’re getting ready to get off the bus. We all stand up. I’m several steps behind as she turns. She goes “drop dead.” And where this came from, I can’t tell you. I said, given your age, I’m guessing you’re going first. People say, well, how do you think that up? I didn’t think that up. The first time she heard it was first time I heard. I have no idea. But that’s my, that’s. You don’t have to be mentally ill to write comedy or perform comedy. But it don’t hurt. Gabe: I always hear these jokes where people say, did you have a good childhood or are you funny? You know, I’ve read a lot of books that say, you know, some of the best comedy comes from traumatic experience. Frank: Yeah, yeah. Lisa: Absolutely. Gabe: And I. Mental illness is a traumatic experience. And I’m not speaking for all the listeners and I’m obviously not speaking for Lisa and Frank, but for me, the humor is all I have some days. If I can’t laugh at it, I’m going to cry. And that’s why these inappropriate and I’m making the, you know, I wish it was a video podcast Frank: Air quotes. Gabe: So people could see how often I can make air quotes. If it wasn’t for the humor that I can find in this, it would be nothing but darkness. And that’s the way I see it. Frank: One last example, I had a heart attack, I was in the woods half mile up a logging trail with the dogs, I had T-mobile, so I didn’t have cell service. And that never fails to get a laugh and. Lisa: I used to have T-Mobile, yeah. Frank: Oh, God. Gabe: Yeah, it sucked. Frank: Yes. Sucks out loud. Anyway, I got back to the car. Back to the house, yelled at my wife. I’m having a heart attack, dial 911. I heard she came out, got me in an ambulance. I’m at the hospital. Here’s the nice thing about a heart attack. No waiting. Nobody gives a shippa about HIPPA. I’m in the back. And the tragedy plus time equals comedy. But the longer you do comedy, the shorter the time. I’m doing comedy in real time. Lisa: I could see that. Frank: That nurse says to me, I’m in great deal of pain. I’m having a heart attack. She goes, Frank, no paperwork. But I just got one question for you. And I said, I’m married, Honey, but I love the way you think. And she’s trying not to laugh. It’s like, Gabe, if I didn’t have my comedy, what would I have? She goes, No, no, no, no. Your full name is Frank Marshall King, the third. But what do you like to be called? And I said, through the pain, Big Daddy. And to this day, when I go back to Oregon Heart & Vascular and somebody sees me from that morning, hey, Big Daddy, how’s it hanging? So, yeah, Gabe, if I didn’t have the humor. I mean, if I didn’t have that way of dealing with the pain, whether it’s a heart attack or mental illness or whatever it happens to be, it’s you know, it’s just the way we cope. Gabe: You know, Frank, obviously I live with bipolar disorder, but I’ve also had physical issues. I was rushed in an ambulance to the emergency room. I had a surgery that kind of didn’t turn out so well. And here I am in the emergency room and Lisa is trying desperately to find me. Lisa: Well, the woman said to me, are you sure he’s here? I know he’s here. I followed the ambulance. He is here. And then she said something and I said, he is a six foot three redhead. He can’t be that hard to find. Frank: Yeah. Gabe: And the nurse said, you’re looking for Gabe? Lisa: He’s only been here like fifteen inutes. Frank: Well, he makes an impression. Lisa: That actually happened. Gabe: I do. I make an impression. Lisa: He’s not making that that story up. That actually happened. Gabe: Now, here I am. The rest of that is true. And Lisa is now yelling at me because I’m so popular. Frank: No, my ex-wife would tell you, look, Frank, he had a lot. He had a lot of faults, but I never went to a party with him where we didn’t have a good time. Lisa: I can see that. Gabe: Now, the reason I’m telling that story is because everybody loves that story. I tell that story all the time. People are like, oh, Gabe, it’s so good that you can keep your humor. It was scary. And that helped Lisa. And, oh, that’s so beautiful talking about it in that way. But whenever I do that for mental illness, people are like, that’s inappropriate stop. And I’m like, no, wait a minute. Frank: What? Gabe: Why? What’s the. This is one of those, you know, Lisa: Because it’s not as scary. Gabe: Stigmatizing things. You know, making fun of me, almost dying from a surgery, going wrong and almost bleeding to death at home. People are like, yeah, he’s tough, but joking about mental illness, about bipolar disorder. And people are like I don’t know that you’re taking it seriously. And it’s a very scary illness. And I think you might be hurting other people that suffer from this. And I only point that out because we want mental illness and physical illness to be treated exactly the same. And I guarantee there’s nobody that heard your story about, you know, the big daddy story Frank: Yeah. Gabe: About the heart attack. That wasn’t like hell, yeah, he was. You’re a tough guy. But then I hear some of the stuff about suicidality, depression, and like, I don’t know, maybe I don’t like this. And let’s consider just, you know, you don’t have to agree with me immediately. Let’s consider the whys of that. Why do we feel that way? And I think that will allow us to move forward. Look, humor is funny. We need it. We like it. If it’s not for you, don’t listen to it. Frank’s not for everybody. Frank: It’s a way of breaking down barriers and having a meeting of the minds. Because a laugh is something where your minds have to meet. You have to be in the same place at the same time. You know, seeing the same thing. I tell my comedy students, paint the picture, it’s gotta be very vivid. So they can be there with you. Right there with you. Gabe: Well, that is awesome. You are awesome. Frank: Well, thank you very much. Lisa: Yeah, we really enjoyed it. Where can people find you? Frank: TheMentalHealthComedian.com is my Web site. My phone number’s there and sometime in the next, I’m guessing this week, there will be an audio book version of a book that Gabe and I are in. Gabe: Yeah, I actually I think I’m in volume two and you’re in volume one. I didn’t make the cut, but Guts, Grit & The Grind, you can find it on Amazon. It’s a collection of stories from men about their mental health issues, mental illnesses and just the whole concept, we’ve got to give a shout out to Dr. Sally, was that men just don’t talk about their mental health enough and there’s getting to be more men. But I like to joke that I got into this business because it was predominantly women. Frank: Yes. And Sarah Gaer, whose idea it was and who teaches QPR to first responders, mostly men. She went to the bookstore to find a book on men’s mental health, couldn’t find one. Went on Amazon, couldn’t find one. So she Gabe: Here we go. Frank: She put it together. Yes. And if you go to my website, sometime in the next week or so, they’ll be a, put your email in, and you get a free copy of the audio book that I voiced. Gabe: Nice. Nice. If you want to hear Frank’s voice even more, you know what to do. That would be awesome, Frank. It’s always fun. Lisa: Oh, thank you again so much. Frank: Oh, my pleasure. Bye-bye guys, you all be good. Lisa: All right, thank you, bye-bye. Gabe: Uh-huh, bye-bye. Lisa, what do you think? You didn’t say a whole lot. I mean, it is probably hard with Gabe and Frank on the line. Lisa: Well, I thought he raised some interesting points. I thought his comedy was pretty funny, that was good. If I were at a conference, I’d want to go see that. Gabe: Well, you know that that’s interesting because when you started off talking, I thought you were gonna say this sucks. I don’t think we should joke about mental illness. But then you ended with if we were at a conference, I’d want to go see it. It sounds like you’re conflicted, like you’re not sure. Lisa: No. Gabe: Whether this is okay or not. Lisa: Well, I would say that the broader question of is comedy about bad things okay or not has a lot of gray in it. I think that humor and laughter is a recognizable way to deal with dark things. I use it myself. Almost everyone I know uses it. I think this is a universal part of the human condition. We all use humor to get through dark times or to address dark subjects. So, if this is something that you’re uncomfortable with, once he is laughing at his own mental illness, that indicates to the audience that it’s okay to laugh. He’s comfortable with it. So we’re comfortable with it. Gabe: Lisa, you and I have been friends for forever, and I know that you like gallows humor. I know that you like dark humor. Lisa: I do, I really do. Gabe: We both like it. But I noticed that when Frank was telling some of the darker jokes and I mean, he just popped out of nowhere. You looked uncomfortable. I felt uncomfortable. Lisa: I don’t know that I’m so much uncomfortable, as just surprised and you’re not sure how to react. You know, like, what do I do? What do I say? What comes next? And, today, whoa, he just went straight for it. There’s no lead up, no buildup. I think maybe that’s what it was. It was just it’s so shocking to be right in front of your face so fast. Gabe: But let’s say that I did that. Let’s say you and I were we’re sitting in my living room, it’s 3:00 in the morning and I just I pop that joke. Would you know what to say then? Lisa: Well, it’s different. Gabe: Would you have laughed? Lisa: Yeah, but it’s different when you’re with someone you literally know. I’ve met this man for the first time just now. Gabe: But why? I think that’s an interesting concept, because kind of what you’re describing is that gallows humor is okay among close friends, privately, but publicly, Lisa: Well. Gabe: Maybe it’s not OK? I’m just curious as to why? Lisa: Well. Gabe: Listen, I did the same thing. I laughed uncomfortably. Everybody just heard it. Lisa: I didn’t think about that as whether or not it was one of those things where it’s more for close friends and family or. But that’s not really a practical way to go about things just because most of my friends and family just aren’t that funny. So if I want to hear said humor, I’m gonna have to turn to some sort of mass media. Gabe: But you’re alone. Lisa: Oh, okay. Gabe: You’re doing that mass media alone. Lisa: Well, what if I were in the audience? Gabe: There’s no production. There’s no producers. There’s no Psych Central hovering. There’s no, there’s no recording. Lisa: Right. Gabe: However, you reacted, is being recorded right now. Lisa: Right. Gabe: On recordings that you don’t control. Did that impact the way that you responded? Lisa: Absolutely. Gabe: Why? Lisa: And I think it’s probably, I’m assuming it impacts the way that his audience responds as well. Because you’re looking for society to tell you that this is OK or this is not OK. You’re trying to take your cue from other people as to, because you don’t know how to react. It’s so unusual and it’s so surprising that you’re just not sure what to do. Gabe: Isn’t this what gets us in trouble, though? Listen to what you just said. You’re looking around to take your cues from society to decide how you should react. Now, let’s put that in an analogy for people living with mental illness, maybe the guy that you meet with bipolar disorder, you don’t have a problem with it until all of your friends and family say, whoa hoo hoo hoo hoo. You should Lisa: Oh. Gabe: Not date him. He’s mentally ill. So you look around to society to decide how to react. And suddenly the guy with bipolar disorder can’t have friends or get a job or have a shot because everybody is sharing in the same nucleus of misinformation. You had an opportunity to laugh at a joke that I know you find funny. I had an opportunity to laugh at a joke that I know that I found funny. And we opted to skip it because we weren’t sure how our listeners would react. Lisa: Well, Gabe: Wow. We’re breaking down walls. Lisa: Well, OK, but that’s not exactly a fair comparison, because we do have a vested interest in how our listeners react. It’s not like we were at a comedy club with a bunch of people and who cares what they think of us. We care very much about what the people listening are thinking. So I don’t think that’s exactly a fair analogy. So let’s use that analogy, though, where. Yeah, that’s a good point. If it was just about a bunch of strangers or about the larger society and not people who, you know, control the purse strings, we would in fact be saying, yeah. You’re right. That is part of the culture of discrimination. I had not thought of it that way. Good point. Gabe: Obviously, we’ve talked about a lot. I like this type of humor because if it wasn’t for this type of humor, I don’t know that how I would have gotten through. And I do embrace humor is healthy. I do think that sometimes joking about it breaks down barriers. It’s like the analogy that I told about my dad. There are people who are horrified to hear this story. I’m sure that some of them are listening right now. But it’s my dad. And we talk to each other that way. He would say the same thing to me if I was in that situation. And we’d laugh together and we’d cry together and we’d be a family together. And maybe you shouldn’t walk up to a stranger and threaten to beat them up. I kind of agree with that. But. Lisa: Well, of course, you agree with that. Everything is in context. Gabe: And there. There is my big point, I think that sometimes people miss the context of some of Frank’s jokes or some of the jokes that I tell as a speaker. Where people say, you know, that’s not something that you should joke about. But the context is education. The context is bringing it out of the shadows and making it something that we can point at, laugh at, discuss and will not be afraid of. If we’re paying attention to the context, I think a guy Lisa: Well, but. Gabe: Like Frank is perfectly fine. If we pay attention to the words, m aybe Frank has gone too far. I am on the all discussion is good discussion bandwagon. Lisa: Ok, but that same thing could be said about any controversial comedian or any controversial comedy subject. It’s all about the context. We would never have any of this criticism of someone’s material ever if they knew for sure the people in the audience would be okay with it. You know, it’s all about deciding if this particular group of people is comfortable with this humor or not. And I can see I know what it is you’re going to say. You’re going to say that if they’re not comfortable with it, we need to make them comfortable with it. And one of the ways we do that is exposure. Gabe: I think that is a good point, but I wasn’t going to say that at all. What I was going to say is that people have a right to discuss their lives and their trauma and their mental illness in any way they want. And while you may not agree with Frank or even find Frank funny or like Frank or I don’t know why I’m shitting all over Frank, all of a sudden. We love him. We had him on our show. But I think the solution here is to understand that Frank is describing his journey in the way that he is comfortable with. And if you don’t like it, don’t listen. What I worry about is when people say, listen, you have a mental illness, but you can only talk about your mental illness this way. You can only describe your experience in this manner. You can only describe your trauma using these words. I think that really creates a system where people can’t define their own recovery and their own existence. And people can’t be who they want. Yeah, I’m well aware of controversial comedians that that say all kinds of horrific things, but they’re saying them about other people. They’re not saying them about their selves. Lisa: Well, yeah. That’s why. Gabe: One of the things that I love about Frank is that Frank discusses his own life. And yeah, some people don’t like the way that he does it. But I gotta tell you, I’ve been in his audience. The majority of the people love it. It just seems like the people who don’t like it are really loud. Lisa: Well, you would prefer they just weren’t there at all. Everyone has kind of the inalienable right to define their own narrative, to discuss their own thing the way they want to, to put it into the words they choose. And I want to just go with that. I want to just be done there and just stop. Full stop. Done. But then I start thinking well, but, how far does that go? I get that you have mental illness and therefore you kind of have the permission slip to talk about this. But there is a non-zero point where I would say, OK, stop it. Gabe: Well, but I think that what you’re discussing is that you don’t want Frank to tell you what to do with your life. And that’s the great thing about Frank King. His comedy is very personal. He only talks about his experiences, his life. I’ve never seen Frank say I am a person living with depression. And here’s what every single person with depression needs to do. I don’t know what the joke at the end of that would be, but yeah, yeah, I’d show right up and I’d be like, dude, you’re not the elected spokesperson for people with depression. Lisa: But that’s why people would critique it, because there’s a finite number of spokespeople. There are so few voices out there representing us that when one of them says the following thing, that is extra damaging. It’s not like there’s a thousand of these people out there. There’s only a handful. So I think many people feel like you need to tightly control that narrative. If they feel that narrative is incorrect or damaging and other people see that. And he has that cover of, hey, he’s mentally ill. You can’t criticize the way he talks about it, because, after all, it’s his own experience. But they feel that that is damaging to the overall movement. So I don’t know where to go with that. Gabe: Well, but people can critique it and say that isn’t their experience, but it is, in fact, Frank’s. Lisa: OK. Gabe: I can tell you that being a mental health speaker, I’m not a mental health comedian. I’m a mental health speaker and I don’t even have the mental health speaker dot com. So I don’t know. Lisa: Well, that was a clear oversight. Gabe: Yeah, I don’t know where that leaves me. But I can tell you, being a mental health speaker, I love it when people tell me I’m wrong. I love it when I get emails where people tell me that I missed the mark. I love it when people are discussing the things that I say. Being a podcaster or I feel the same way. Respectful emails where people are like, Gabe, I listened to your whole podcast. I listened to your point of view and you are completely wrong. Mental Health Month is in fact, incredible. You shouldn’t have insulted in any way. It is only goodness. I listened to everything that you say. I completely disagree with you. You, sir, are wrong. That is my favorite email ever. They listened to what I said. They considered everything that I said and they are now putting out in the world that Gabe Howard is wrong. There is nothing wrong with that. We should be very, very clear. I just want to take a moment. Frank is not doing any of these things. We’re just using him as a Lisa: Well, yeah, because he’s the one who’s here right now. Gabe: Yeah, he was just dumb enough to come on the show. I bet he’s rethinking that now that he’s listening to it. Lisa: Yeah, we’re gonna have trouble getting guests after this. Gabe: But seriously, these discussions are powerful. Right, Lisa, I understand what you’re saying. Lisa: Yes. Gabe: You don’t want to be on the Gabe train because then it’s all one way or all another. Lisa: Because where’s the line? Gabe: I’m telling you, there isn’t a line. It would be nice if we lived in a world where this is the stuff that was appropriate. And this is the stuff that was inappropriate. That world does not exist. I feel very strongly that the best we can do is allow for respectful dialog and respectful disagreement. I think that mental health advocacy would move forward at an extraordinarily rapid rate if all the people who disagreed could get on board, find the stuff we have in common and push that forward. Because, listen, we’re never going to agree. The way that a middle aged white guy experiences bipolar disorder is j ust different than a 70 year old woman who’s been living with bipolar disorder, which is different than 20 year olds who are being diagnosed, which is different from people below the poverty line, above the poverty line. Lisa: Yeah, we get it. It’s all different. Everyone’s different, yes. Gabe: I just I haven’t even scratched the surface of differences yet. I know that you think that I’m just going on and on and on and on and on. But you know as well as I do that I haven’t even covered one percent of all of the differences with people bipolar disorder. Lisa: Well, obviously not. Because all of the people with bipolar disorder represent all of the available differences in the population. Gabe: Exactly. This applies to more than just mental health. Lisa: Yeah, It’s a broadly applicable discussion. Gabe: And I really wanted to remind my listeners that, you know, so often people living with mental illness feel that the bar is different for us. And it is. Lisa: Yeah, it is. Gabe: The bar is different for us. But, you know, sometimes the bar is exactly the same. It’s exactly the same as everybody else. People are trying to decide the best way to discuss all kinds of controversial topics, scary topics, misunderstood topics. And they’re all running into the same problems that people who are advocating on behalf of people living with mental illness are running into. It is one of the things that bind us. It’s difficult to know how to get the word out there, because as sure as I’m sitting here, you’re going to step on somebody’s toes. Lisa: Yeah. Here, here. Gabe. Gabe: Lisa, did you have fun? Lisa: Yes. A real treat to have Frank with us today. Gabe: It was really, really awesome. Now, Lisa, you have seven days to come up with a new way to start the show. If you say hi, I am Lisa, I. Lisa: It’s hard. I need help here, people, help me, help me. Give me some advice. Gabe: Really? You want people to e-mail show@PsychCentral.com to tell an experienced podcaster how to start her own show? Lisa: Yes, I feel that people should definitely e-mail show@PsychCentral.com to let us know what it is I should be saying. Gabe: You heard the lady; I’m not going to argue with her. Listen up, everybody. Here’s what I need you to do. If you love the show, please give us as many stars as humanly possible. Use your words and write about how much you loved us. Words really, really help. And share us on social media. Use your words there too. Really this whole thing comes down to using positive words to share us and subscribe and to make us famous. Like, wouldn’t it be cool if we were as famous as Frank King, Lisa: Oh. Gabe: at mental health comedian dot com? Lisa: I believe that’s TheMentalHealthComedian.com, Gabe. He’s just not a mental health comedian. He is the mental health comedian. Gabe: Once again, thank you, Frank. Thanks, everybody, for listening. And we will see you next Tuesday. Lisa: Bye. See you then. Announcer: You’ve been listening to the Not Crazy Podcast from Psych Central. For free mental health resources and online support groups, visit PsychCentral.com. Not Crazy’s official website is PsychCentral.com/NotCrazy. To work with Gabe, go to gabehoward.com. Want to see Gabe and me in person? Not Crazy travels well. Have us record an episode live at your next event. E-mail show@psychcentral.com for details. View the full article
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